வஞ்சகன்--கண்ணனா, கர்ணனா?

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
80 messages Options
1234
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: வஞ்சகன்--கண்ணனா, கர்ணனா?

muniyaraj
nanpa thamarai sulchi illamaya karnan kollapattan slunga avan kavasam kundalam yen inthirannal vanga pattathu slunga  nallathu kettathu  vitunga unmaiya pesunga karnan ninaithal pandavarkal alikka mudiyum avan uyi pichai koduthan but karnan yariyamum uyir pichai vanga villa mr thamarai
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: வஞ்சகன்--கண்ணனா, கர்ணனா?

muniyaraj
In reply to this post by தாமரை
nanpa thamarai karnan  siri vayathil beshmar vaitha pottiyil thuriyanukku  sarathiyaga irunthu vetri kondan arunan tholvi adainthan apo enna sonnaga thalchi kulam ni vil yentha kudathu solli avana asinga paduthinaga so karnan kalvi karka poyi solli parasuram kitta payinran yen pandavr yuthishdan tharmathin thalaivan ashwathaman sethutan solli guru kolla villaiya pandavar senja nayam athu kouravar karl karnan senja aniyayam enna kodumai slunga thamarai
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: வஞ்சகன்--கண்ணனா, கர்ணனா?

muniyaraj
In reply to this post by Arul Selva Perarasan
mr arul selvam thuropathi guru vamsam gulavatha? 5 pera kalyanam panni varusam 1 kuda valum ival .... enna solla athu mattum inri arjunan manaivi  thurupathi mattuma slunga sumithirai  ext... ivan nallavana gouravarkal karnan oru manaivi mattu pothum iruntharkal avarkal pathini penni thappa pesa villai
 
2. thiropathi mattum klarnan thalchi kulam sollalam ayutham parithu asingam paduthalam ival  thuyi uritha enna thappu

3.anmagan manam mariyathai pengankku  karpu thuyi onnu than

4. ivan pannuna povam atha avarkal adimai akki pinpu nayam kurinar so corect mudivu
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: வஞ்சகன்--கண்ணனா, கர்ணனா?

தாமரை
Administrator
In reply to this post by muniyaraj
கர்ணன் யாரிடமும் உயிர் பிச்சை வாங்கவில்லை. உண்மைதான். ஆனால் உயிர் வாழ்வதுதான் வீரமென்றால் அஸ்வத்தாமன் கர்ணனை விட மிகச் சிறந்த வீரனல்லவா?

கர்ணன் கவசமும் குண்டலமும் இந்திரன் இரந்து பெறாமல் இருந்திருந்தால் கர்ணன் இறந்திருக்க மாட்டான். ஆனால் தோற்றிருப்பான் என்பதே உண்மை. இந்திரனைக் கொண்டு கண்ணன் கவச குண்டலங்களைப் பெற்றது கர்ணனை வீரனாக்கத்தான். விராடப் போரில் மோகன அஸ்திரத்தால் மயங்கிய கர்ணன் மேலாடையை உத்தரன் எடுத்துச் சென்றது உமது நினைவிலேயே இல்லை. என்ன செய்ய?

கர்ணன் நினைத்தாலும் சரி, பீஷ்மர் நினைத்தாலும் சரி, துரோணர் நினைத்தாலும் சரி நடந்தது என்னவோ கண்ணன் நினைத்தது மட்டுமே.   அதை உன்னிப்பாக கவனிக்க வேண்டும்.

மிக அடிப்படையாக நீங்கள் ஒன்றை மனதில் கொள்ள வேண்டும். மகாபாரதத்தில் வீரம் வென்றது என்று எங்காவது சொல்லப்பட்டிருக்கிறதா? வீரம் மட்டுமே வெற்றிக்குப் போதாது என்பதை மகாபாரதம் தெளிவாகவே காட்டுகிறது.

கர்ணன் பல முறை வெல்லப்பட்டிருக்கிறான். பல விற்கள் இழந்திருக்கிறான். பல தேர்கள், பல கொடிகள் இழந்திருக்கிறான். பல சாரதிகளையும் இழந்திருக்கிறான். அர்ச்சுனன் ஒருவன் மட்டுமே மகாபாரதத்தில் வில், தேர், சாரதி என எதையும் இழக்காதவன். எதிரிகள் அவனை அதிகபட்சம் வில் நாணை அறுத்தனர்.. மயக்கம் வரும் அளவிற்கு காயப்படுத்தினர் அவ்வளவே.

அபிமன்யுவை வீழ்த்தியது துச்சாதனின் மகன். கர்ணன் செய்தது அபிமன்யுவின் வில்லை அழித்தது.

பிரச்சனை என்னவென்றால் நீங்கள் கர்ணன் மாவீரன் மாவீரன் என்று சொல்கிறீர்களே அன்றி கர்ணன் ஏன் மாவீரன் என்ற காரணத்தை அடுக்க மாட்டேன் என்கிறீர்கள். கர்ணன் எங்கெங்கு வென்றான்.. எங்கெங்கு தோற்றான் என இங்கே பட்டியலே உள்ளது. அவற்றை முழுதும் படிக்கவும். அர்ச்சுனன் கர்ணனால் எத்தனை முறை தோற்கடிக்கப்பட்டான் எனவும் பட்டியலிடவும்.

நீங்கள் சொல்லப் போவது ஐந்தாறு விசயங்கள்தான் அத்தனைக்கும் சரியான பதில் நான் கொடுப்பேன். மற்றபடி சிறு குழந்தை போல அழுது அடம் பிடிக்காதீர்கள்.

மகாபாரத யுத்தம் போர்களத்தில் ஆரம்பித்து 18 நாளில் முடியவில்லை.

சல்லியனை ஏமாற்றியது, யாதவர் படையைப் பெற்றது என துரியோதனனாலும் சகுனியாலும் மிக முன்பாகவே ஆரம்பிக்கப்பட்டது. கண்ணனும் ஆயுதம் ஏந்தாமலேயே தான் சார்ந்த படைக்காக இராஜதந்திரங்கள் செய்தார்.

கர்ணன் மாவீரன் என்றால் அர்ச்சுனனைக் கொல்ல இந்திரனிடம் சக்தி அஸ்திரம் பெற்றிருக்க வேண்டிய அவசியமில்லை. அதேபோல் நாகாஸ்திரம் அர்ச்சுனனை நான் கொல்கிறேன் என்று வந்தபோது ஏற்றுக் கொண்டிருக்க வேண்டியதில்லை. அவையெல்லாம் யுத்தநியதி.

துரியோதனன் ஏன் பீஷ்மரை ஒதுக்கி விட்டு கர்ணனை முதல் நாளே தளபதி ஆக்கி இருக்கக் கூடாது முனியராஜ்?
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: வஞ்சகன்--கண்ணனா, கர்ணனா?

Ramesh
In reply to this post by muniyaraj
கர்ணனை ஒரு மாவீரனாக என்னால் நிச்சயம் கருதமுடியாது. காரணம் உண்மையான வீரன் உயிர் போகும் நிலை வந்தாலும் புறமுதுகிட்டு ஓட மாட்டன். பீஸ்மாரோ துரோணரோ அர்ஜுனனோ புறமுதுகிட்டு ஓடியதாக தெரியவில்லை. மேலும் வீரம் என்பது ஒருவருடைய துணிச்சலை வைத்து முடிவு செய்ய வேண்டுமே தவிர அவனிடம் உள்ள தெய்விக ஆயுதங்களையும், கவசங்களையும் வைத்து அல்ல.
பாஞ்சாலி கர்ணனிடம் அஸ்திரம் பறிப்பது, கர்ணன் சிறுவயதில் பீஷ்மர் வைத்த போட்டியில் ஜெயிப்பது போன்ற காட்சிகள் வியாசருடைய மகாபாரதத்தில் இல்லை. அவை விஜய் டிவி மகாபாரதத்தில் ஏற்படுத்தப்பட்ட இடைசொருகல் ஆகும். நண்பர் முனியராஜ் அவர்கள் மூல மகாபாரதத்தை பார்க்காமல், தொலைக்காட்சி மற்றும் திரைபடத்தை மட்டும் பார்த்து வாதிடுவதகவே தோன்றுகிறது. எனவே நண்பரே தாங்கள் வாதிடுவதற்கு முன்பு மகாபாரதத்தை இந்த வலைத்தளத்தில் pdf மூலம் பதிவிறக்கம் செய்து நன்கு ஆராய்ந்து பார்த்துவிட்டு தாங்கள் கருத்துகளை தெரிவியுங்கள்.      
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: வஞ்சகன்--கண்ணனா, கர்ணனா?

விஜையன்
In reply to this post by தாமரை
VIRAT WAR - AN INTERPOLATION

Greatest heart attack for Arjun fans. Virat was is greatest interpolation of epic added in order to recover image of Arjuna. But interpolation is not easy task. This thread is meant to prove Virat war as an interpolation

____________________¬____________________¬____________________-____________________¬______

● PART-1 : PROOF FROM DIFFERENT VERSIONS

Kumarvyass MB which was recited in 13th century by Lord Vishnu himself doesn't mentioned Virat war. Devdutt version doesn't mentioned virat war. Shanta rao version not mentioned virat war. jaimini bharat doesn't mentioned virat war. Ramesh C Dutt version only described defeat of Duryodhana in virat not others

PASSAGE -

There is Drona my preceptor, Drona's warlike son is there,
Kripa and the mighty Bhishma, archer Karna, tall and fair,
Them I seek not in this battle, lead, O lead thy chariot far,
Midst the chiefs Duryodhan moves not, moves not in the ranks of war,
But to save the pilfered cattle speeds he onward in his fear,
While these warriors stay and tarry to defend their monarch's rear,
But I leave these car-borne warriors, other work to-day is mine

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/dutt/maha06.htm

[ As per Romesh C. Dutt version, It was Arjun who was defeated by Kuru warriors in virat war. LOL . He simply fled from Bhishma, Drona & Karna. Then he followed Duryodhana . Finally he had defeated Duryodhana & rescued cattle]

(CONCLUSION) - THERE WAS NO FIGHT BETWEEN KARNA & ARJUNA

--------------------¬--------------------¬--------------------¬--------------------¬----

● PART-2 : PROOF FROM KMG VERSION

1ST PROOF -

ACCORDING TO SAGE VED VYASSA, THERE WAS NO FIGHT BETWEEN KARN AND ARJUN IN VIRAT WAR

Passage-1 : (Drona Parv)

Indeed, Karna had kept his dart, desirous of slaying Savyasachin, O bull of Bharata's race, by good luck JISHNU DID NOT ENGAGE IN SINGLE COMBAT with Karna."

http://sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07180.htm

Passage-2 : (Corrupted text of Virat Parv)

the mighty-armed Dhananjaya, that conqueror of foes, leaving Drona's son, all on a sudden rushed towards Karna. And rushing towards Karna, with eyes reddened in anger the son of Kunti, desirous of a SINGLE COMBAT with him, said these words."

http://sacred-texts.com/hin/m04/m04059.htm

[ Here after Ghatotkacha-vadha on the 14th night, sage Vyasa himself accepted Arjuna/Jishnu didn't fight a single combat/duel against Karna after Karna had got Vasavi Shakti. Karna got Vasavi Shakti in Vana Parva, whereas Virata war took place in Virata Parva. But as per Vyasa, before Ghatotkacha-vadha, Karna and Arjuna never fought a duel. (As per interpolated text of virat parv, that duel was Single combat). Then when there was no fighting, how did Karna get defeated ?? LOL ]

[ It proves Virat war is an Interpolation. There was no fight between Karna & Arjuna]

2ND PROOF -

THERE WAS NO FIGHT BETWEEN KARN AND ARJUNA IN VIRAT WAR CONFESSED BY DHRITRASHTRA

Tell me, O Sanjaya, why DID NOT Vrisha then ENAGAGING Phalguna in single combat, slay the latter with that dart given him by Sakra?

www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07179.htm

3RD PROOF -

THERE WAS NO FIGHT BETWEEN KARN & ARJUNA CONFESSED BY SANJAYA

At the time of battle, however, we forget our resolution. Kesava always protected Arjuna, the son of Kunti. He NEVER PLACED Arjuna before the Suta's son in battle.

www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07179.htm

Ghajni BORI -

अर्जुनं चापि कौन्तेयं सदा रक्षति केशवः
न ह्येनमैच्छत्प्रमुखे सौतेः स्थापयितुं रणे

http://sanskritdocuments.org/mirrors/mahabharata/unic/mbh07_sa.html

(CONCLUSION) - AS PER VED VYASSA, SANJAYA AND DHRITRASHTRA THERE WAS NO FIGHT BETWEEN KARN & ARJUNA IN VIRATA WAR

--------------------¬--------------------¬--------------------¬--------------------¬----

● PART-3 : EXPOSING ERRORS OF INTERPOLATED VIRAT WAR

ARJUNA TOLD UTTAR THAT HE HAD HELD GANDIVA BOW FOR 65 YRS

And after that Varunaheld it for a hundred years. And finally Partha,
surnamed Swetavahana, 1hath held it for FIVE AND SIXTY years.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m04/m04043.htm

[ Arjun did obtain Gandiva bow in khandav-dahan Parv. Abhimanyu was born in parv which comes before Khandava-dahan. Abhimanyu was either 33 yrs old or 16 yrs old its contradictory. Even if we assume he was 16 yr old still how can Arjun held gandiva for 65 yrs. Because he obtained gandiva after birth of Abhimanyu and if abhimanyu himself was 16 yrs old then how can Arjun held gandiva for 65 yrs. LOL]

Exposing funny logic of Arjun fans-

Arjun fan admin is trying to justify this by altering sloka. As per this funny admin, Arjuna was trying to say that he held gandiva for 32 years and he will use hold gandiva for 33 years in the future. Thats why 32 (past) + 33 (future) = 65 years. LOL

Explaination-

1. Was Arjun god/sage/¬astrologist who know his future..?? How he comes to know about future..?? Total non-sense logic of arjun fans

2. Even if we assume that Arjuna was able to see his future still this number is wrong. After kurushetra war, Yudhistira did rule for 36 years. After that Arjuna give away his gandiva. Hence calculation 32 (Past) + 36 (future) = 69 years. Still it doesn't match with original number

(CONCLUSION) - INTERPOLATION CAUGHT

--------------------¬--------------------¬--------------------¬--------------------¬----

● PART-4 : SIMPLE LOGIC SUPPORT THE FACT VIRAT WAR BEING AN INTERPOLATION

1) Bhishma didn't allow Karna to fight in kurushetra war. Then why did he allow Karna to fight in Virat war...??

2) All parshuram shishya never attacked on an eunuch... Bhishma dropped weapons against Shikhandi... Then why did he raise weapons against Brihnalla(eunuch)..?

3) Karna had shakti in virat war... Still why didn't he use it in virat war...?

4) Arjun couldn't defeat Bhagdatta during digvijay in 10 days.... How did he defeat all kuru warriors in just half day ..?

5) All kuru warriors attacked on virata & stolen their cows... Was hastinapur so poor country to attack on virata just for cows ....?

6) Commander of Vitata, Keechak was already slain by bhima, hence virat was powerless country... Still Duryodhana need group of warriors like Bhishma, Karna, Drona & Ashwatthama to defeat poor king like Virat... LOL ... Does it make any sense ...?

7) In virat war, Under protection of hanuman he did defeat all kuru warriors easily but what happened in kurushetra..? -- He slew Bhishma, Karna, Bhurishrava & Bhagdatta by cheating ... Why ...??

8) In kurushetra, Arjun had dropped weapons against Bhishma & Drona.. Then he need Gita Gyan... In virat war, Without Gita gyan he fought with Bhishma & nearly slew him... Does it make any sense ..?

9) Why king Virat did allo Uttar to fight against entire kuru army..?? ..... Was uttar such powerful warrior able to defeat entire kuru army ...?? ... Does it make any sense..?

10) Pandava did complete their exile successfully... Still Arjun without any reason disguised as 'Enuch Brihnalla' ... Why...?

11) Was sammohan astra such mighty weapon so all kuru warriors including Bhishma, Drona, Karna, Ashwatthama failed to counter it..?... Drona did neutralize sammohan astra in kurushetra but why he failed in Virat war..? ... Why didn't arjun use sammohan astra in kurushetra again ..??

12) All pandava supported Arjuna during drupad war ... Then why did yudhistira allow Arjuna to fight against all kuru maharathi alone ..??

13) Why not even single important kuru warrior was slain by Arjun in virat war ..?? ..Why did he fail to kill any single warrior and just defeat them ..??

14) Arjuna was defeated by robbers & failed to save vrishni women from ordinary robbers ?? ... How did he manage to rescue all cows from entire kuru army ..??.. LOL

--------------------¬--------------------¬--------------------¬--------------------¬--

● PART-5 : RESEARCH ON VIRAT WAR BY SCHOLARS

Scholars such as E. Washburn Hopkins have suggested[15] the entire Virata Parva may be a later insertion in the original epic Bharata, and of recent origins. His analysis is based on the different meter of the verses in Virata Parva, out of sequence matter, the sudden appearance... of names of new goddesses (Durga) and their worship – names that do not appear in older verses of the Mahabharata or in other ancient texts of India, implied customs and social stratification that is absent or inconsistent in other books of the Mahabharata, as well as claims about the number of years Arjuna carried the bow before the battle in Go-grahana Parva – a claim that simply doesn’t add up and is inconsistent with rest of the Mahabharata. Buitenen takes a different view.[16] He accepts that Virata Parva is a book that was added in the second major expansion of the Hindu Epic, yet the concerns of Hopkins, while true, do not establish the entire Parva was added at much later date. These insertions can be recent interpolations, corruption of text, and careless scribing over the centuries. Buitenen reminds that Matsya kingdom and king Virata play a significant role in Udyoga Parva, the great war and later books – all of which, in the style of the Mahabharata, require chapters that introduce king Virata and Matsya kingdom. This introduction, we find in Virata Parva.

( CONCLUSION) - AS PER RESEARCH OF MANY SCHOLARS, VIRAT WAR IS AN INTERPOLATION
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: வஞ்சகன்--கண்ணனா, கர்ணனா?

விஜையன்
In reply to this post by தாமரை
ANALYSIS OF FINAL ENCOUNTER THROUGH POV OF EPIC CHARACTERS
Arjun- The Mahanalayak said that he is going to expose truth but ended up making a post full of jokes. No logic, No effect. only Poor justification. LOL. We have already posted comprehensive analysis of final encounter.
LINK - (https://goo.gl/JWJkpU)
Now we shall cover conditions and POV of characters after final encounter.
____________________________________________________________­____________________­______
● PART-1: CONDITION OF ARJUNA AFTER HIS ENCOUNTER WITH KARNA
- Arjuna lost his IMPENETRABLE CELESTIAL ARMOUR of INDRA (AINDRA KAVACH) which was cut off by a terrible shaft of Karna.
- Arjuna lost his INDESTRUCTIBLE CELESTIAL CROWN (gifted by Indra) which was broken into pieces by a powerful arrow of Karna.
- Arjuna lost 12 strings of his INDESTRUCTIBLE CELESTIAL BOW GANDIVA (11 strings of Gandiva were cut off by Karna, and Arjuna himself broke one string due to lack of skill).
- Arjuna lost his CELESTIAL CHARIOT (gifted by Varuna) which was destroyed by Karna's Brahmastra (though Arjuna was saved from certain destruction because of the presence of Krishna and Hanuman on his chariot). Anyway, when they dismounted the chariot, at the same moment it blasted into thousands of pieces (Thanks to Krishna, otherwise Arjuna would have blasted along with his chariot).
- Arjuna lost virtually his entire supporting-force including the van-guard and rear-gurad troops, who were eliminated by Karna. Bhima, Nakula, and Sahadeva were helping Arjuna from the start of the fight but all of them were put to flight by Karna. Later Yudhisthira also returned to the battlefield to assist Arjuna (Yudhisthira was knocked out of the battlefield long before the start of the final encounter by Karna). But he was again beaten back by Karna and once again ran away from the battlefield abandoning Arjuna.
Passage from KMG:-
"During the progress of the battle between thyself and Karna, the son of Dharma ONCE CAME for beholding the field. Having, however, been deeply and exceedingly pierced (with arrows), he COULD NOT STAY IN BATTLE . The king, that bull among men, then went BACK TO HIS TENT."
http://sacred-texts.com/him/­08/m08096.htm
[Yudhisthira came to the battlefield to assist Arjuna but was put to flight after being wounded by Karna's arrows. Anyway, Arjuna fans may claim that nowhere it is written Yudhisthira was pierced by Karna's arrows. OK, in this case we can assume that Yudhisthira was pierced by Arjuna's arrows as we know Arjuna was an unskilled archer, so it's possible he wanted to pierce Karna but he missed aim and his arrows struck Yudhisthira instead ]
- Arjuna's body was deeply and badly mangled with Karna's arrows. Blood was flowing from all his wounds. All his vital limbs were pierced by Karna
ARJUNA WAS IN A CRITICAL CONDITION AND NEEDED MEDICAL ASSISTANCE URGENTLY
A) ARJUNA AND KRISHNA HAD REMOVED KARNA'S BLOOD-SUCKING ARROWS FROM THEIR BODIES AFTER RETURNING TO THEIR TENTS
"Pierced with KARNA'S ARROWS, those two chastisers of foes, Acyuta and Arjuna, looked resplendent like the bright and many-rayed moon and the sun risen after dispelling a gloom. CASTING OFF THOSE ARROWS, those two mighty warriors, both endued with unrivalled prowess, surrounded by well-wishers and friends, happily entered their own encampment."
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/­m08/m08094.htm
[ Even after death of Karna, Arrows of Karna drunk blood of Arjuna for long period and both of them returned to tent and removed those terrible arrows]
B) CONDITION OF THE BODIES OF ARJUNA AND KRISHNA AFTER AN ENCOUNTER WITH KARNA
"Beholding their joy and the EXTRAORDINARY WOUNDS on their bodies, Yudhishthira regarded the son of Radha to be dead and rose quickly from his bed.
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/­m08/m08096.htm
[It's clearly written that Karna had created extraordinary wounds on Arjuna's entire body by his terrible arrows. Arjuna was badly wounded]
--------------------­--------------------­--------------------­--------------------­----
● PART-2: ANALYSIS OF FINAL ENCOUNTER BY GREAT CHARACTERS
A) SANJAYA
ACCORDING TO SANJAYA, IT WAS KARNA WHO OVERPOWERED AND TORE THE PANDAVAS (ARJUNA, BHIMA, YUDHISTHIRA AND THE TWINS), THE PANCHALAS AND THE SUPPORTERS OF ARJUNA DURING FINAL ENCOUNTER
.
"Having SCORCHED THE PANDAVAS and the PANCHALAS with the energy of his weapons, having poured showers of arrows and BURNT the hostile divisions, having, indeed, HEATED THE UNIVERSE like the thousand-rayed Surya of great beauty, Karna, otherwise called Vaikartana, left the world"
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/­m08/m08094.htm
B) KARNA'S WIFE
KARNA'S WIFE EXPOSED COWARD ARJUNA AND HIS USELESS SKILL
"Without doubt, thy preceptor’s curse hath pursued thee! When the wheel of thy car was swallowed up by the Earth, the CRUEL DHANANJAYA cut off thy head with an arrow! Alas, FIE ON the heroism and SKILL!"
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/­m11/m11020.htm
C) LORD KRISHNA
AFTER FINAL ENCOUNTER, KRISHNA DESCRIBED SUPERIORITY OF KARNA OVER ARJUNA AND ADMITTED ABOUT HIS ILLEGAL USE OF ILLUSIONARY POWERS AGAINST KARNA
"All of them (Bhishma, KARNA, Drona and Bhurisrava) were great car-warriors and exceedingly quick in the use of weapons! If ye had put forth all your prowess,
even then ye could NEVER have slain them in battle by FIGHTING FAIRLY. From desire of doing good to you, I repeatedly applied MY POWERS OF ILLUSION and caused them to be slain by DIVERSE MEAN in battle."
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/­m09/m09061.htm
[Krishna accepted that he had used his illusions to kill Karna. In spite of having this advantage, 5 Pandavas together were incapable of defeating Karna, let alone unskilled Arjuna]
D) YUDHISTHIRA
YUDHISTIRA ACCEPTED KARNA HAD DEFEATED ALL 5 PANDAVA IN ALL ENCOUNTERS
"who OVERTHREW US IN REPEATED ENCOUNTERS, who was quick in the use of weapons, conversant with every mode of warfare, possessed of great skill"
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/­m12/m12a001.htm
E) DURYODHANA
DURYIDHANA PRAISED THE GREAT FEAT OF KARNA AND ADMITTED ARJUNA WAS LOSER AGAINST KARNA
"Karna had done a GREAT FEATS FOR VANQUISHING Partha. Thou, however, causedst Aswasena, the son of that prince of snakes (Takshaka), to be baffled in achieving his purpose! When again the wheel of Karna's car sank in mire and Karna was afflicted WITH CALAMITY and almost VANQUISHED ON THAT ACCOUNT, when, indeed, that foremost of men became anxious to liberate his wheel, thou causedst that Karna to be then slain!"
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/­m09/m09061.htm
MISCONCEPTION ABOUT THE WORD "VANQUISHED"
Some illiterate Runanjaya fans say that Duryodhana admitted Karna was vanquished by Arjuna. LOL. These moron can't read simple english properly. Duryodhana said that Karna was vanquished by the calamity (आफत/संकट) which occurred due to curses. Duryodhan had blamed curses for Karna's condition. Duryodhan already accepted victory of karna over Arjuna in final encounter and praised feats of Karna
Gita Press For those who can't read simple english sentence properly
Link - (https://goo.gl/43CwHq)
फिर जब उसके रथ का पहिया गड्डेमे गिर गया और जब वह उठानेमे व्यग्रतापुर्वक संलग्न हुआ उस समय "संकटसे पीडीत और पराजित" जानकर तुमलोगोने मार डाला
Case Close
F) SALYA
AGENT SALYA TOO ACCEPTED THAT KARNA OVERPOWERED ARJUNA IN FINAL BATTLE BUT DESTINY SAVED ARJUNA FROM KARNA
"Karna had POWERFULLY ASSAILED the TWO Krishnas today and ALL OTHER who are thy foes. Destiny, however, has certainly flowed, controlled by Partha. It is for this that DESTINY IS PROTECTING THE PANDAVAS and weakening us."
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/­m08/m08092.htm
[ As per Salya, Destiny had protected Arjuna from Karna otherwise Arjuna would have been dead]
G) KRISHNA
AFTER ANALYSIS KRISHNA ACCEPTED VICTORY OF KARNA OVER ARJUNA IN FINAL BATTLE
"That descendant of Kuru's race then asked Vasudeva (the particulars of Karna's death). Then the sweet-speeched Vasudeva that descendant of the Yadu race, spoke to him of Karna's death exactly as it had happened.
Smiling then, Krishna, otherwise called Acyuta, joined his palms and addressed king Yudhishthira whose foes had been killed saying, "By GOOD LUCK, the WIELDER OF GANDIVA, and VRIKODARA, the son of Pandu, and thyself, and the two sons of Madri, ARE ALL SAFE, having been freed from this battle that has been so destructive of heroes and that made the very hair of the body to stand on end. Do thou those acts, O son of Pandu, which should next be done. The Suta's son Karna, possessed of GREAT MIGHT and otherwise called Vaikartana, hath been slain. By good luck, victory hath become thine, O king of kings. By good luck, THOU GROWEST, O son of Pandu!"
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/­m08/m08096.htm
[Krishna told Yudhisthira the entire description of the final encounter between Karna and Arjuna, and Krishna called Arjuna "lucky" man just because remained alive after encounter with Karna. LOL. and Krishna praised Karna, not his friend arjuna. This demonstrates that Krishna also knew Arjuna's inferiority to Karna after analysis of final encounter]
________________________________________________________________________________­______
JUST FOR INFO - Panda fans must say thanks to our admin team as we exposed Arjuna using KMG version not ISKCON version. KMG version describes tearing of mosquito Arjuna by elephant Karna but ISKCON version describes Dinosaur Karna had consumed mosquito Arjuna in single draught of water. ISKCON describes Arjuna as great moron who had conducted entire battle in half unconsious state. Arjuna stood almost naked. What more to say..??
ISKCON VERSION ANALYSIS
Link - (http://goo.gl/UnRsGV)
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: வஞ்சகன்--கண்ணனா, கர்ணனா?

விஜையன்
In reply to this post by தாமரை
AN ANALYSIS OF THE GANDHARVA WAR
_____
THIS THREAD IS SO LONG, BUT I REQUEST ALL
TRUE KARNA FANS TO READ THE POST
COMPLETELY.
_____
IN THIS THREAD WE WILL ANALYZE THE
GANDHARVA WAR AND SHOW YOU THE REAL
SITUATION OF THAT INCIDENT.
__________
Karna was intoxicated/drunk during the war
between the Kauravas and the Gandharvas:-
__________
"the Kuru prince, surrounded by the
cowherds, began to # sport and wander
cheerfully.
And the citizens also and the soldiers by
thousands began to sport, as best pleased them,
in those woods, like the celestials. And the
herdsmen, well skilled in singing and dancing and
instrumental music, and virgins decked in
ornaments, began to minister to the pleasures of
Dhritarashtra's son. And the king surrounded by
the ladies of the royal household began
cheerfully to distribute wealth and food and
# drinks_of_various_kinds amongst those that
sought to please him, according to their desires."
_____
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03238.htm
__________
Duryodhana and others were making merriment
there, they were celebrating a party. Duryodhana,
surrounded by the Kuru ladies, distributed
wealth, food and various types of drinks among
his followers (i.e. Karna, Sakuni, and other Kuru
princes).
_____
Duryodhana and others were celebrating a party
there, so it is obvious that the drinks that they
were taking was not water or milk. [Lol... were
Karna and Duryodhana children that they would
drink milk in a party?]
_____
Karna, Duryodhana and others were drinking
# wine .
__________
"And the king, attended by # all_his_followers ,
began also to slay hyenas and buffaloes and
deer and gayals and bears and boars all around.
And the king, piercing by his shafts those
animals by thousands in deep forest, caused the
deer to be caught in the more delightful parts of
the woods. Drinking # milk and # enjoying, O
Bharata, various other delicious articles and
beholding, as he proceeded, many delightful
forests and woods swarming with bees inebriate
with floral honey and resounding with the notes
of the peacock, the king at last reached the
sacred lake of Dwaitavana."
_____
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03238.htm
__________
Here it is written that Duryodhana, along with all
his followers (including Karna, Sakuni and
others) were enjoying and drinking milk. This is
complete insanity to think that Kauravas were
celebrating a party by drinking milk. Obviously
they drank some kind of wine (made from milk
and other objects).

Asura Vow Of Karna After Gandharva War-

Karna vowed not to drink wine again in his life. He pointed out incidence of Gandharva war where he was drunk
____

Hear me, O elephant among kings! So long as I do not slay Arjuna, I shall not allow any one to wash my feet, nor shall I taste meat. And I shall observe the Asura vow 1 and whoever may solicit me (for any thing), I never shall say, 'I have it not.'
___
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03255.htm
____

Conclusion:- Karna and others were drinking
wine, obviously they were partially (if not
completely) drunk during their encounter with the
Gandharvas. This contributed greatly to their
defeat in the battle against the Gandharvas.
__________
Analysis of the war between the Kauravas and
the Gandharvas:-
__________
"when the Gandharvas were so commanded by
Chitrasena, they rushed weapons in hand,
towards the Dhritarashtra ranks. And beholding
the Gandharvas impetuously rushing towards
them with upraised weapons, the Kuru warriors
precipitously fled in all directions at the very
sight of Duryodhana."
__________
Point-1: The war started here.
_____
Point-2: The whole of the Kuru army fled
(including Duryodhana, his 100 brothers and
Sakuni), seeing the Gandharvas rushing towards
them with various weapons.
__________
"And beholding the Kuru
soldiers all flying from the field with their backs
to the foe, the heroic Radheya alone fled not."
__________
Point: The whole of the Kuru army fled, only
Karna remained on the battlefield.
__________
"And seeing the mighty host of the Gandharvas
rushing towards him, Radheya checked them by
a perfect shower of arrows. And the Suta's son,
owing to his extreme lightness of hand, struck
hundreds of Gandharvas with Kshurapras and
arrows and Bhallas and various weapons made
of
bones and steel. And that mighty warrior,
causing the heads of numerous Gandharvas to
roll down within a short time, made the ranks of
Chitrasena to yell in anguish."
__________
Point-1: Karna alone checked the whole force of
the Gandharvas, and within a short span of time,
he slew hundreds of Gandharvas.
_____
Point-2: While fighting with the Gandharvas,
Karna effectively used various types of arrows
and various types of other weapons. And while
using those weapons, he displayed his extreme
lightness of hand.
_____
Point-3: Karna alone checked and overwhelmed
the vast Gandharva host.
__________
"And although they
were slaughtered in great numbers by Karna
endued with great intelligence, yet the
Gandharvas returned to the charge by hundreds
and thousands. And in consequence of the
swarms of Chitrasena's warriors rushing
impetuously to the field the earth itself became
soon covered by the Gandharva host."
__________
Point-1: Karna slew a very large number of
Gandharvas.
_____
Point-2: In spite of Karna's continuous onslaught,
the Gandharvas continued to rush towards him in
great numbers.
_____
Point-3: The Gandharva army was much larger
than the Kuru army. The Gandharvas were so
many in number that the earth seemed to be
filled with the Gandharvas. Karna alone
withstood that vast force.
__________
"Then king
Duryodhana, and Sakuni, the son of Suvala, and
Dussasana, and Vikarna, and other sons of
Dhritarashtra, seated on cars the clatter of
whose wheels resembled the roars of Garuda,
returned to the charge, following the lead of
Karna, and began to slaughter that host. And
desirous of supporting Karna, these princes
invested the Gandharva army, with a large
number of cars and a strong body of horses.
Then the whole of the Gandharva host began to
fight with the Kauravas. And the encounter that
took place between the contending hosts was
fierce in the extreme and might make one's hair
stand on end."
__________
Point-1: When Duryodhana beheld that Karna
alone had checked the vast Gandharva force, he
returned to the battlefield, along with his
brothers and the Kuru army.
_____
Point-2: Karna thus got a strong back-up, and
continued to fight.
_____
Point-3: A general war commenced between the
Kuru army and the huge Gandharva host.
__________
The Gandharvas, at last, afflicted
with the shafts of the Kuru army, seemed to be
exhausted. And the Kauravas beholding the
Gandharvas so afflicted sent up a loud sound."
__________
Point-1: In the general engagement, the Kuru
army led by Karna completely overwhelmed the
Gandharvas.
_____
Point-2: At this point of the battle, the
Gandharvas were nearly exhausted, and were on
the verge of defeat.
__________
"And seeing the Gandharva host yielding to fear,
the angry Chitrasena sprang from his seat,
resolved to exterminate the Kuru army. And
conversant with various modes of warfare, he
waged on the fight, aided by his weapons of
illusion."
__________
Point-1: When Karna, supported by the Kuru
army, had nearly vanquished the Gandharvas,
and the Gandharvas were struck with fear,
Chitrasena (king of the Gandharvas) entered the
battlefield.
_____
Point-2: Chitrasena didn't engage in a duel/single
combat with Karna (or any other Kuru warrior).
And, he used neither any ordinary weapon nor
any celestial weapon against the Kuru army. He
directly used an illusion against the Kuru army.
He knew that he wouldn't be able to defeat
Karna in a single combat. He also knew that if
he had used any weapon (be it ordinary or
celestial), Karna would have baffled it with ease.
So he directly used an illusion.
_____
Point-3: Chitrasena was a Gandharva.
Gandharvas possessed illusionary powers, and
were well-acquainted with illusions (and
illusionary warfare). But Karna and others in the
Kuru army were humans, who didn't possess
illusionary powers. According to the rules of war,
a warrior/warriors possessed of illusionary
powers should not use illusions against him/
those who doesn't/don't possess illusionary
powers, and if he/they does/do so, that is
considered as 'deceit' and 'violation of rules of
war'. Chitrasena used illusions against Karna and
the Kuru army (who were humans), and thus
violated the rules of war.
_____
Note-1: Some people may ask where I have
found that using illusions against those who
didn't possess illusionary powers is a violation of
the rules of war.
____
Dhritarashtra said, 'When the Rakshasa fighting by DECEITFUL MEANS thus disappeared, tell me, O Sanjaya, what the warriors of my army thought.'

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07176.htm
____
I would suggest them to read
the narratives of the duel between Abhimanyu
and Alamvusha on the 9th day and the duel
between Karna and Ghatotkacha on the 14th
night. In these duels Alamvusha and Ghatotkacha
(both of whom were Rakshasas, and possessed
of illusionary powers) used illusions against
Abhimanyu and Karna (both of whom were
humans, not possessing illusionary powers)
respectively and both of those Rakshasas were
marked as 'deceitful' for their acts (i.e. using
illusions against human warriors).
_____
Note-2: If a warrior possessed of illusionary
powers use illusions against another warrior
possessed of illusionary powers, then that's not a
violation of the rules of war. (In case of
Rakshasa vs Rakshasa, Naga vs Naga,
Gandharva vs Gandharva, Naga vs Rakshasa,
Gandharva vs Rakshasa etc. scenarios)
__________
"And the Kaurava warriors were then all
deprived of their senses by the illusion of
Chitrasena. And then, O Bharata, it seemed that
every warrior of the Kuru army was fallen upon
and surrounded by ten Gandharvas. And attacked
with great vigour, the Kuru host was greatly
afflicted and struck with panic. O king, all of
them that liked to live, fled from the field."
__________
Point-1: In consequence of Chitrasena's sudden
illusionary attack, all Kuru warriors (including
Karna) were deprived of their senses. Karna and
others were nearly unconscious.
_____
Point-2: Beholding the Kuru warriors (including
Karna) almost unconscious owing to the terrible
illusion of Chitrasena, the nearly defeated
Gandharvas attacked them with greater vigour.
This was another violation of the rules of war,
because attacking (or striking) unconscious
warriors was against the rules of war, but the
Gandharvas violated this rule also.
_____
Point-3: Being thus attacked, large part of the
Kuru army fled from the battlefield. Only Karna,
Duryodhana, Duryodhana's brothers, Sakuni, and
a smaller portion of the Kuru army remained on
the battlefield.
__________
"But
while the entire Dhritarashtra host broke and
fled, Karna,
that offspring of the Sun, stood there, O king,
immovable as a hill. Indeed, Duryodhana and
Karna and Sakuni, the son of Suvala, all fought
with the Gandharvas, although every one of them
was much wounded and mangled in the
encounter."
__________
Point-1: As Karna and few other Kuru warriors
(who remained in the battlefield) were almost
unconscious, the Gandharvas used the
opportunity to mangle and wound them badly.
_____
Point-2: Though nearly unconscious and
exceedingly wounded, yet Karna stayed on the
battlefield, and fought to the utmost of his
power.
_____
Point-3: Karna lost his back-up force, as all of
them were almost unconscious, practically
useless.
_____
At this point, let me clear some doubts that
often arise.
_____
Doubt-1: Why did Karna fail to counter
Chitrasena's illusion?
_____
Answer: Chitrasena used the illusion suddenly. At
first he wasn't in the battlefield. When Karna had
nearly defeated the Gandharvas, he suddenly
entered the battlefield and just after entering,
used a terrible illusion to make Karna and others
unconscious. Chitrasena did it without any
warning or challenge. He used deceit to defeat
Karna and others.
Also people may question why Karna didn't use
any celestial weapon to counter the illusion (as
though he was nearly unconscious, yet he wasn't
completely senseless). The answer is Karna was
already drunk (though not completely, but he
drank wine just before the war, so it is obvious
that he was partially drunk), and when Chitrasena
used illusion, he became almost unconscious,
and in that condition, it wasn't possible to invoke
into existence celestial weapons as in order to
shoot celestial weapons complete concentration
is required (and it is completely foolishness to
expect that a drunk and almost unconscious
warrior could have complete concentration).
So, this is the reason why Karna had failed to
counter Chitrasena's illusion.
_____
Doubt-2: Karna possessed his impenetrable
armour and ear-rings during Gandharva War.
Then how was he defeated?
_____
Answer: Karna's armour and ear-rings had made
him immortal/unslayable, but it hadn't made him
invincible/undefeatable. Karna's armour and ear-
rings used to protect him from mortal/lethal/
deadly threats only, not from defeat.
_____
Doubt-3: How did the Gandharvas manage to
mangle Karna exceedingly as Karna possessed
his impenetrable armour at that time?
_____
Answer: Karna was exceedingly mangled, but it
is not mentioned in which parts of the body he
was mangled. So, it can be assumed that the
Gandharvas mangled those parts of Karna's body
which were not covered by his armour (forehead,
neck, hands, thighs etc.).
Karna also used the same technique to mangle
Abhimanyu on the 13th day of the Kurukshetra
War, when the latter was encased in an
impenetrable armour.
_____
Doubt-4: Karna failed to counter Chitrasena's
illusion, so was he a poor warrior?
_____
Answer: No, not at all. Karna failed to counter
Chitrasena's illusion owing to some specific
factors (Karna's being drunk, his being almost
unconscious, use of deceit by Chitrasena). But
when Karna fought with the same Gandharvas
during his digvijay, he successfully countered
their illusions and defeated them easily. Also
Karna successfully countered hundreds of terrible
illusions created by Rakshasa Ghatotkacha.
__________
"All the Gandharvas then, desirous of
slaying Karna, rushed together by hundreds and
thousands towards Karna. And those mighty
warriors, desirous of slaying the Suta's son,
surrounded him on all sides, with swords and
battle-axes and spears. And some cut down the
yoke of his car, and some his flagstaff, and
some the shaft of his car, and some his horses,
and some his charioteer. And some cut down his
umbrella and some the wooden fender round his
car and some the joints of his car. It was thus
that many thousands of Gandharvas, together
attacking his car, broke it into minute
fragments."
__________
Point-1: Though Karna was almost unconscious
and exceedingly wounded, yet he continued to
fight with the Gandharvas, slaying many of them.
_____
Point-2: Considering Karna as their main threat,
the Gandharvas concentrated their attack on
Karna.
_____
Point-3: Many thousands of Gandharvas, armed
with various kinds of weapons, together attacked
on Karna's chariot.
_____
Point-4: An exceedingly wounded, almost
unconscious and intoxicated Karna failed to
counter this fierce group attack.
_____
Point-5: Karna was not using his celestial Vijaya
bow and his celestial chariot during this war. He
was using an ordinary bow and an ordinary
chariot at that time. Some Gandharvas cut off
Karna's bow, some slew his horses, some slew
his charioteer, some cut down his standard,
some cut down his umbrella, some cut down his
flagstaff, some cut off the yoke of his chariot,
some cut off the shaft of his chariot, some cut
off the wooden fender around it, and some cut
off the joints of it. This was the most ferocious
and brutal group attack in the whole
Mahabharata.
__________
Weaponless Karna left Battle :-
_____
"And while his car was thus attacked, Karna
leaped therefrom with sword and shield in hand,
and mounting on Vikarna's car, urged the steeds
for saving himself."
__________
Point-1: At this point of the war, Karna's
condition was:- half-intoxicated, almost
unconscious, exceedingly wounded, bowless,
steedless, driverless, chariotless, without any
effective back-up, and surrounded by enemies
(Gandharvas).
_____
Point-2: Only a sword and a shield remained in
Karna's arsenal. Karna took up those weapons
and leaped from his broken chariot.
_____
Point-3: It was impossible to counter
Chitrasena's illusion in that condition, that too
using an ordinary sword. So Karna decided to leave battle for recovery
_____
Point-4: But to leave battle also wasn't an
easy task. Gandharvas had surrounded him and
they wanted to kill Karna. Karna cut through the
ranks of the Gandharvas with his sword, and
reached Vikarna's chariot.
_____
Point-5: Vikarna's charioteer was already slain
by the Gandharvas. So, Vikarna was on a
driverless chariot. So, Karna didn't have any
chance to fight by using that chariot. Under
these dire circumstances, Karna himself drove
that chariot, and retreated out of the battlefield.
__________
Link- http://sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/
m03239.htm
__________
Incidents that followed after Karna left battle:-
_____
Vaisampayana said, "After that great warrior
Karna had been routed by the Gandharvas, the
whole of the Kuru army, O monarch, fled from
the field in the very sight of Dhritarashtra's son.
And beholding all his troops flying from the field
of battle with their back to the foe, king
Duryodhana refused to fly. Seeing the mighty
host of the Gandharvas rushing towards him, that
represser of foes poured down upon them a thick
shower of arrows. The Gandharvas, however,
without regarding that arrowy shower, and
desirous also of slaying him, surrounded that car
of his. And by means of their arrows, they cut
off into fragments the yoke, the shaft, the
fenders, the flagstaff, the three-fold bamboo
poles, and the principal turret of his car. And
they also slew his charioteer and horses, hacking
them to pieces. And when Duryodhana, deprived
of his car, fell on the ground, the strong-armed
Chitrasena rushed towards him and seized him in
such a way that it seemed his life itself was
taken. And after the Kuru king had been seized,
the Gandharvas , surrounding Dussasana, who
was
seated on his car, also took him prisoner. And
some Gandharvas seized Vivinsati and
Chitrasena, and some Vinda and Anuvinda, while
others seized all the ladies of royal household."
_____
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03240.htm
__________
Point-1: After Karna's retreat, the remaining
small portion of the Kuru army also fled (main
part of the Kuru army had fled long before
Karna's retreat).
_____
Point-2: Though in imminent danger, Duryodhana,
Dussasana, and his other brothers remained in
the battlefield. [I appreciate them for their
bravery, as though all of them were intoxicated
and almost unconscious and badly wounded (just
like Karna) they didn't retreat, anyway, this
decision was a foolish one, as none of them had
the capability to counter illusionary attacks]
_____
Point-3: Duryodhana, Dussasana, his other
brothers and their wives were all captured by the
Gandharvas.
_________
Return of Karna:-
_____
"And as the king
Duryodhana was seated on an elevated bedstead
endued with the effulgence of fire, himself
looking like the moon under an eclipse, towards
the small hours of the morning Karna,
approaching him, said, 'Fortunate it is, O son of
Gandhari, that thou art alive! Fortunate it is, that
we have once more met! By good luck it is that
thou hast vanquished the Gandharvas capable of
assuming any form at will. And, O son of the
Kuru race, it is by good luck alone, that I am
enabled to see thy brothers--
mighty warriors all--come off victorious from that
encounter, having subjugated their foes! As
regards myself, assailed by all the Gandharvas, I
fled before thy eyes, unable to rally our flying
host. Assailed by the foe with all his might, my
body mangled with their arrows, I sought safety
in flight. This however, O Bharata, seemed to me
to be a great marvel that I behold you all come
safe and sound in body, with your wives, troops,
and vehicles, out of that super-human
encounter."
_____
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03246.htm
__________
Point-1: After recovery, though late, Karna
returned to assist Duryodhana. He found
Duryodhana safe and sound, and thought that
Duryodhana had defeated the Gandharvas.
_____
Point-2: Here we can find a great quality of
Karna. He never used any excuse for his failures.
Unlike Arjuna, he never blamed destiny for his
failures. Karna had the mental strength to
accept/acknowledge his faults. Here Karna didn't
use make any attempt to justify his action [i.e.
retreating from the Gandharvas]. He simply
accepted that he was defeated.
Arjuna never acknowledged his failures. He
remained boastful and egoistic. Karna was the
opposite. This is one of the main differences
between Karna and Arjuna in case of moral
character.
_____
Point-3: It should be noted that Karna and
Duryodhana's brother Vikarna both had retreated
from the battlefield. But Vikarna (who was ready
to lay down his life for the sake of Duryodhana,
in consequence of his regard for duties to
brother) didn't return to assist Duryodhana, only
Karna returned. Karna cared for Duryodhana
more than anyone else.
_____
Now let me clear another doubt.
_____
Doubt: Why did Karna take so much time to
return?
_____
Answer: When Karna had retreated, he was
intoxicated, almost unconscious and exceedingly
wounded. Now where did he go after retreating?
Obviously he went to a nearby encampment
[Duryodhana had set up camps at many places
while on his way to Ghosha-yatra]. There he
must have undergone some treatment [he was
badly wounded], and he may also have become
unconscious [he was already intoxicated and
nearly unconscious owing to Chitrasena's
illusion]. When he recovered, he equipped
himself with weapons and a fresh chariot. He
didn't have any back-up, so he must have tried to
rally the remaining army, but he failed, as the
surviving soldiers had all fled. So he alone
returned to assist Duryodhana. And in this
process, he became late to return.
__________
So, reasons of Karna's defeat/retreat were:-
_____
1. Karna's being intoxicated/drunk
2. Chitrasena's sudden illusionary attack [1st
use of deceit by the Gandharvas]
3. Karna's being exceedingly wounded by the
weapons of the Gandharvas [2nd use of deceit
by the Gandharvas]
4. Karna's being weaponless [sword can't be
used for countering illusions]
__________
I hope all Karna fans now understand why and
how Karna was defeated in Gandharva War.
__________
Let me clear two other doubts.
_____
Doubt-1: Karna was defeated by the Gandharvas.
So was he inferior to them in warfare?
_____
Answer: No, Gandharvas had defeated an
intoxicated Karna through deceit. Karna again
encountered the Gandharvas during his digvijay,
and at that time he defeated them easily,
because at that time Karna wasn't intoxicated
like the previous encounter.
_____
[Bhishma to Karna]
_____
"Many kings, amongst whom Nagnajit was the
foremost, while staying in Girivraja, as also the
Amvashthas, the Videhas, and the # Gandharvas,
were # all # vanquished by thee."
_____
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07004.htm
__________
Point-1: During digvijay, Karna defeated the
Gandharvas.
_____
Point-2: This time Karna was not intoxicated, so
he didn't let the Gandharvas to use deceit. He
vanquished them, and forced them to pay tribute
to Duryodhana.
_____
Yudhisthira's opinion about Karna's strength and
competence:
______
"Only one great bowman, viz., the # Suta's_son,
shineth in it! That foremost of car-warriors is
# incapable_of_being_vanquished by the three
worlds with their mobile and immobile creatures,
including the gods, Asuras and GANDHARVAS,
and the Kinnaras and great serpents!
______
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/m08/m08011.htm
__________
Point-1: Yudhisthira was a very truthful person,
he used to speak the truth always, he lied only
once in his life (in case of Drona). So his words
can be trusted without any doubt.
_____
Point-2: Yudhisthira confirmed that Karna was
far superior to the Gandharvas in warfare.
_____
Point-3: Yudhisthira knew about Karna's defeat
at the hands of the Gandharvas during Ghosha-
yatra. Yet he said that Karna was undefeatable
by the Gandharvas. Why? Because Yudhisthira
also knew that the Gandharvas had defeated
Karna not by their might, but with the help of
deceit.
_____
Point-4: Some "people" may claim that
Yudhisthira's words were only ornamental
language. I would like to ask them why
Yudhisthira didn't use these words in case of
Duryodhana, Dussasana, Salya, Bhima, Nakula or
any other warrior. This was not any ornamental
language, Yudhisthira just described the might of
Karna.
__________
Doubt-2: Was Chitrasena superior to Karna in
warfare?
_____
Answer: No, Chitrasena was in no case superior
to Karna. He had defeated Karna through deceit.
During digvijay, Karna defeated Chitrasena and
compelled him to pay tribute to Duryodhana. This
time Karna was cautious, and he didn't let
Chitrasena use any type of deceit. So, Chitrasena
got defeated.
_____
Point-1: Some "people" may say nowhere it is
mentioned that Chitrasena was defeated. I would
like to inform them of the fact that without
defeating the king a kingdom can't be
conquered, so it is crystal clear that Karna had
defeated Chitrasena (king of the Gandharvas)
also.
_____
Point-2: Also Chitrasena was a preceptor and
friend of Arjuna. Obviously Chitrasena didn't
show any type of mildness towards Karna (who
was Arjuna's mortal enemy). Chitrasena fought
against Karna using all his power during digvijay,
still he was defeated by Karna. This proves
Karna was far superior to Chitrasena in warfare.
__________
Analysis of the battle between the Pandavas and
the Gandharvas:-
__________
And speaking unto them thus, Pritha's
son, Dhananjaya, capable of wielding the bow
with his left hand also, then rained a shower of
sharp pointed sky-ranging shafts upon those
rangers of the firmament. Thus attacked, the
mighty Gandharvas then encountered the sons of
Pandu with a shower of arrows equally thick, and
the Pandavas also replied by attacking those
dwellers of heaven. And the battle then, O
Bharata, that ranged between the active and
agile Gandharvas and the impetuous son of
Pandu was fierce in the extreme."
_____
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03242.htm
__________
Point-1: The battle between the Pandavas
[ARJUNA, BHIMA, NAKULA and SAHADEVA] and
the Gandharvas started here.
_____
Point-2: Karna didn't have any back-up during the
first round of his encounter with the Gandharvas,
as at first the whole Kuru army had fled even
without fighting. On the other hand, Arjuna got a
strong back-up by Bhima, Nakula, and Sahadeva.
_____
Point-3: Karna was intoxicated during the battle,
whereas the Pandavas were not.
__________
"Then those Gandharvas
decked in golden garlands and accomplished in
celestial weapons, showing their blazing shafts,
encountered the Pandavas from every side. And
as the sons of Pandu were only four in number
and the Gandharvas counted by thousands, the
battle that ensued appeared to be extraordinary."
__________
Point-1: The Pandavas continued to fight with
the Gandharva army.
_____
Point-2: Karna had already slain large numbers
of Gandharvas. So the Pandavas faced a much
smaller and exhausted Gandharva army, unlike
Karna, who had to deal with an overwhelmingly
large and fresh Gandharva army.
__________
"And as the cars of Karna and Duryodhana had
formerly been broken into a hundred fragments
by the Gandharvas, so were the cars of the four
heroes attempted to be broken. But those tigers
among men began to encounter with their
showers of arrows thousands upon thousands of
Gandharvas rushing towards them. Those rangers
of skies endued with great energy, thus checked
on all sides by that arrowy down-pour,
succeeded not in even coming near to the sons
of Pandu."
__________
Point-1: The Gandharvas attempted to break the
chariots of the Pandavas. But the Pandavas
resisted them.
_____
Point-2: Arjuna used his celestial Gandiva bow
and his celestial and indestructible chariot, so he
was in a more advantageous position than Karna.
_____
Point-3: Gandharvas succeeded in breaking
Karna's chariot, but they failed to break the
chariots of the Pandavas. From this, people may
claim the Pandavas were better than Karna. But
we must remember that at first Chitrasena used
illusion (violating rules of war) and Karna was
nearly unconscious, in this situation, Gandharvas
succeeded in breaking his chariot. But Pandavas
didn't face this situation. So this doesn't prove
the Pandavas' superiority over Karna.
__________
"Then Arjuna whose ire had been
provoked, aiming at the angry Gandharvas,
prepared to hurl against them his celestial
weapons. And in that encounter, the mighty
Arjuna, by means of his Agneya weapon, sent
ten
hundreds of thousands of Gandharvas to the
abode of Yama."
__________
Point-1: Arjuna started to use celestial weapons
against the Gandharvas, sanctioning that he was
unable to defeat the Gandharvas by means of
ordinary weapons. [But Karna had nearly
defeated the Gandharvas by using ordinary
weapons before the deceitful use of illusion by
Chitrasena, this again proves Karna's superiority
over Arjuna]
_____
Point-2: Arjuna slew large number of
Gandharvas.
__________
"And that mighty bowman, Bhima,
also, that foremost of all warriors in battle, slew,
by means of his
sharp arrows, Gandharvas by hundreds. And the
mighty sons of Madri also, battling with vigour,
encountered hundreds of Gandharvas, O king,
and slaughtered them all."
__________
Point: Bhima, Nakula, and Sahadeva, - all slew
large number of Gandharvas. Arjuna had a strong
supporting team, while Karna didn't get this
advantage.
__________
"And as Gandharvas
were being thus slaughtered by the mighty
warriors with their celestial weapons, they rose
up to the skies, taking with them the sons of
Dhritarashtra. But Dhananjaya, the son of Kunti,
beholding them rise up to the skies, surrounded
them on every side by a wide net of arrows."
__________
Point: Gandharvas then rose up in the sky, but
Arjuna confined them by creating a net of
arrows.
__________
"And
confined within that arrowy net like birds within a
cage, they showered in wrath upon Arjuna maces
and darts and broad-swords. But Arjuna who was
conversant with the most efficacious weapons,
soon checked that shower of maces and darts
and broad-swords, and in return began to mangle
the limbs of the Gandharvas with his crescent-
shaped arrows. And heads and legs and arms
began to drop down from above resembling a
shower of stones. And at that sight, the foe was
struck with panic."
__________
Point: Gandharvas showered various weapons on
Arjuna, however, Arjuna checked that downpour
of weapons.
__________
"And as the Gandharvas were
being slaughtered by the illustrious son of Pandu,
they began to shower from the skies a heavy
downpour of shafts upon Arjuna, who was on the
surface of the earth. But that chastiser of foes,
Arjuna, endued with mighty energy checked that
shower of arrows by means of his own weapons
and began, in return, to wound them."
__________
Point: Gandharvas showered arrows on Arjuna,
but Arjuna checked that arrowy downpour.
__________
"Then
Arjuna of the Kuru race shot his well -known
weapons called Sthunakarna, Indrajala, Saura ,
Agneya and Saumya. And the Gandharvas
consumed by the fiery weapons of Kunti's son,
began to suffer heavily, like the sons of Diti,
while being scorched by Sakra's thunder-bolt.
And when they attacked Arjuna from above, they
were checked by his net of arrows. And while
they attacked him from all sides on the surface
of the earth, they were checked by his crescent-
shaped arrows."
__________
Point: When the Gandharvas assailed him
violently, Arjuna started to use celestial weapons
against them indiscriminately, one after another.
He used Saurastra, Saumyastra, Agneyastra,
Sthunakarnastra, and Indrajalastra.
__________
"And beholding the Gandharvas
put in fear by Kunti's son, Chitrasena rushed, O
Bharata, at Dhananjaya, armed with a mace. And
as the king of the Gandharvas was rushing at
Arjuna from above with that mace in hand, the
latter cut with his arrows that mace wholly made
of iron into seven pieces."
__________
Point-1: Beholding the condition of his army,
Chitrasena rushed at Arjuna with a mace. Arjuna
cut off that mace.
_____
Point-2: Chitrasena had suddenly used an illusion
against Karna and other Kuru warriors. But he
didn't do that in Arjuna's case.
_____
Point-3: Chitrasena had attacked Karna without
engaging in a single combat with him and
without any challenge or warning. But he
engaged in a single combat with Arjuna. This
time he didn't use deceit. Arjuna again got an
advantage, which Karna didn't get.
__________
"And beholding that
mace of his cut into many pieces by Arjuna of
great activity, with his arrows, Chitrasena, by
means of his science, concealed himself from
the view of the Pandava and began to fight with
him. The heroic Arjuna, however, by means of
his own celestial weapons checked all the
celestial weapons that were aimed at him by the
Gandharvas."
__________
Point: Chitrasena now started using deceit, he
concealed himself partially. Chitrasena and
Arjuna had an encountered with celestial
weapons. Arjuna destroyed the weapons of
Chitrasena.
__________
"And when the chief of the
Gandharvas saw that he was checked by the
illustrious Arjuna with those weapons of his he
entirely disappeared from sight by help of his
powers of illusion. And Arjuna, observing that the
chief of the Gandharvas was striking at him
concealed from sight, attacked his assailant with
celestial weapon inspired with proper Mantras .
And the multiform Dhananjaya filled with wrath,
prevented the disappearance of his foe by
means of his weapon known by the name of
Sabda-veda."
__________
Point: Chitrasena tried to make himself
completely invisible, but Arjuna stopped him from
doing so by using Sabda-veda astra.
__________
"And assailed with those weapons by
the illustrious Arjuna, his dear friend, the king of
the Gandharvas, showed himself unto him. And
Chitrasena said, 'Behold in me thy friend battling
with thee!' And beholding his friend Chitrasena
exhausted in the battle, that bull among the sons
of Pandu withdrew the weapons he had shot.
And the other sons of Pandu beholding Arjuna
withdraw his weapons, checked their flying
steeds and the
impetus of their weapons and withdrew their
bows."
_____
Link- http://sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/
m03243.htm
__________
Point: Chitrasena was overpowered (but not
defeated) by Arjuna, and upon his request,
Arjuna stopped the war.
__________
Now how did Arjuna succeed in overpowering
Chitrasena?
__________
[Indra commanded Chitrasena]
_____
"Dhananjaya also with his brother
should always be protected by thee in battle, for
he is thy dear friend and disciple."
_____
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03244.htm
__________
Point-1: In fact, it was Indra had sent the
Gandharvas headed by Chitrasena to seize Karna
and Duryodhana. But Chitrasena's mission was
not completely successful, as he failed to seize
Karna. Though deceived by Chitrasena and the
Gandharvas in battle, and completely surrounded
by enemies, Karna had cut through the enemy
ranks using a sword and managed to retreat, and
even returned to free Duryodhana. If the
Pandavas had not set Duryodhana free from the
Gandharvas, Karna would have liberated
Duryodhana, and then he would have seized
Chitrasena instead.
_____
Point-2: Indra had commanded Chitrasena to
protect Arjuna in case of any conflict/battle. So,
Chitrasena fought mildly with Arjuna all along,
that's why Arjuna got the upper hand over him.
This is also the reason why Chitrasena didn't
start sudden illusionary attack on Arjuna (what
he did with Karna and the Kuru army).
__________
I HOPE KARNA FANS WILL BE CLEARED OF ALL
DOUBTS REGARDING GANDHARVA WAR AFTER
READING THIS THREAD.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: வஞ்சகன்--கண்ணனா, கர்ணனா?

விஜையன்
In reply to this post by தாமரை
VIJAYA vs GANDIVA
I have seen some frustrated Arjuna fans who couldn't digest the fact that Karna was far superior to unskilled Arjuna in archery. So, now they have changed the topic and are futilely trying to prove that Arjuna's bow was superior to Karna's bow, and so Arjuna was better than Karna. LOL What a logic! Anyway, most importantly their theory is based upon a statement of Draupadi who had ZERO knowledge about weapons. So let's again use dear Mahanalayak Arjuna fans for our timepass.
THIS THREAD IS DIVIDED AS
A) EXPOSING THE FALSE STATEMENT OF DRAUPADI
B) VIJAYA vs GANDIVA
C) FEATURES OF VIJAYA AND GANDIVA
D) KARNA vs ARJUNA WITH/WITHOUT CELESTIAL BOWS
________________________________________________________________________________­_____
● PART-1: EXPOSING THE FALSE STATEMENT OF DRAUPADI
[Draupadi told Krishna]
"Fie on that Gandiva which none else can string save Arjuna and Bhima and thyself, O slayer of Madhu!"
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/­m03/m03012.htm
POINT-1: In the first place, Draupadi was a woman who had virtually no knowledge about weapons (In those days women were not admitted in military, so how could they have knowledge about weapons?) So, Draupadi's statement can't be taken seriously.
POINT-2: Draupadi gave this statement after the dyuta-sabha. Karna had already exposed her character in open court. So how can it be expected that she would even slightly praise Karna? Obviously she would praise her own husbands (Bhima, Arjuna etc.) just like every other wife in the world.
POINT-3: As per Draupadi, only three warriors can string Gandiva - Krishna, Bhima and Arjuna (actually Arjuna was not skilled enough to string Gandiva). So obviously the warriors who were superior to Arjuna and Bhima could have strung Gandiva.
List of warriors who were superior to Arjuna and Bhima:-
A) Karna
B) Bhishma
C) Lord Parashurama
D) Lord Balarama
E) Drona
F) Bhagadatta
G) Elephant of Bhagdatta named Supratika (animal)
H) Valiant Dwarka robbers
I) Saindhava foot-soldiers
J) Many others
All the warriors mentioned above were superior to Bhima and Arjuna, and they used these two brothers for their battle-practice. Even the elephant of Bhagadatta (animal) should have been able to wield Gandiva because he had defeated a wielder of Gandiva (Bhima). What more to say?
POINT-4 : During interpolated virat war, Kid Uttara climbed up tree and brought Gandiva along with 4 bows easily. ROLF. Kid uttar held gandiva along with other 4 bow and alighted from tree like superman. It proves that even kid like Uttar used to play with toy Gandiva
"Vaisampayana said, 'Thus addressed by Partha, Virata's son, decked in ear-rings, alighted from the car, and CLIMBED UP that Sami tree reluctantly. And staying on the car, Dhananjaya, that slayer of enemies, said, unto him, 'Speedily bring thou down those bows from the top of the tree. And cutting off their wrappings first and then the ropes with which they were tied, the prince beheld the GANDIVA there along with four other bows.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m04/m04041.htm
Vaisampayana continued, 'Hearing these words of Arjuna, Uttara cast off all inactivity. And he speedily ALIGHTED FROM THE TREE bringing with him ARJUNA'S WEAPON
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m04/m04045.htm
POINT-5 : Lord Krishna himself exposed poor Arjuna as arjun was NOT CAPABLE to lift gandiva with his left hand
[ Krishna to Arjuna]
By me have all these been already slain. Be only (my) instrument. O thou that can'st draw the bow with even the left hand.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m06/m06035.htm
POINT-6 : Rukmi too obtained a celestial bow named 'Vijaya' from a Kimpurusha Drona (different from the Vijaya bow of Karna) which is described as equal to Gandiva and Sharanga.
Passage-
"And Rukmi was a disciple of that lion among the ‪#‎Kimpurushas‬ who was known by the name of ‪#‎Drona‬. And that mighty-armed warrior had obtained also the bow named Vijaya of celestial workmanship, belonging to the great Indra, and which was EQUAL TO GANDIVA IN ENERGY and to also SARANGA (held by Krishna)."
http://sacred-texts.com/­/hin/m05/m05159.htm
This proves that Rukmi was able to wield and string Gandiva bow because it was equally powerful to his own bow, but Draupadi didn't mention the name of Rukmi in her funny statement. It sanctions the fact that Draupadi's statement about Gandiva was completely inconsistent with reality.
DRAUPADI'S STATEMENT WAS FALSE
--------------------­­-------------------­-­------------------­--­-----------------­---­----
● PART-2: VIJAYA vs GANDIVA
1) KARNA AS THE WIELDER OF VIJAYA BOW
A) KARNA OBTAINED VIJAYA FROM LORD PARASHURAMA WHICH WAS SUPERIOR TO GANDIVA BOW
[Karna told Duryodhana]
"That formidable bow, the gift of Rama, is SUPERIOR TO GANDIVA It was with that bow that the Earth was subjugated thrice seven times (by Bhrigu's son). WITH THAT BOW GIVEN TO ME BY RAMA I will contend in battle with the son of Pandu."
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/­m08/m08031.htm
[It proves that Vijaya bow was superior to Gandiva. Because neither Karna was unacquainted with the knowledge of weapons like Draupadi nor was Duryodhana a fool to believe in any false information (Duryodhana already knew about Gandiva's power, so it would be foolish to think that he would agree with any wrong information about Gandiva)]
B) KARNA WAS ABLE TO STRING VIJAYA BOW WITH TERRIFIC SPEED
"Having said these words, the Suta's son of great valour, that hero, taking up his ANCIENT and foremost of bows called VIJAYA, stringed it and rubbed the STRING repeatedly."
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/­m08/m08064.htm
[Karna easily strung Vijaya bow which was superior to Gandiva, sanctioning the fact that Gandiva bow was a toy for Karna]
C) SPEED OF KARNA WITH AND WITHOUT VIJAYA BOW
SPEED OF KARNA WITH ORDINARY BOW-
[Terrific speed of Karna confessed by Lord Krishna on the 14th night when Karna was using ordinary bows]
"These wails are being incessantly heard, O Partha, of thy helpless friends who are uttering them, mangled by the shafts of Karna. The manner in which Karna is aiming and letting off his shafts is such that NO INTERVAL can be noticed between the two acts. He will, O Partha, annihilate all our friends."
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/­m07/m07170.htm
[Even supreme Lord Krishna failed to notice the speed of shooting of Karna that's too at night when Karna was using an ordinary bow]
SPEED OF KARNA WITH VIJAYA BOW-
No need to say anything. Read the post about the final encounter and the archery practice of Karna on Arjuna.
II) ARJUNA AS WIELDER OF INFERIOR GANDIVA BOW
A) ARJUNA FAILED TO STRING INFERIOR GANDIVA BOW PROPERLY
"Then Arjuna endeavoured to string his large, indestructible, celestial bow with some effort. He succeeded with GREAT DIFFICULTY in stringing it, when the battle had become furious."
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/­­m16/m16008.htm
[Over-boastful archer Arjuna was not skilled enough to string Gandiva properly. Arjun failed to string bow properly which was inferior to Vijaya but Karna used superior bow for his archery practice against Arjuna. This again proves that Karna was much superior to Arjuna in archery]
NOTE - Draupadi said that Arjuna was able to string Gandiva, but reality is the opposite. Rukmi was superior to loser Arjuna as he was able to wield equally powerful bow. It again proves Draupadi's statement regarding Gandiva was useless.
B) NERVOUS, TERRIFIED AND FRUSTRATED ARJUNA BROKE HIS OWN BOW-STRING DUE TO LACK OF SKILL
"As the two heroes, O king, struck each other with many foremost of arrows, O king, the sounds caused by the bows, bow-strings, and palms, of both Dhananjaya and Adhiratha's son, became tremendous and their well-sped arrows also caused a deafening whizz. Then the BOW-STRING OF THE SON OF PANDU, stretched with force, BROKE with a loud noise."
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/­­m08/m08089.htm
[While Arjuna was fighting with Karna, he FAILED to match the speed of Karna, and while trying to shoot arrows more quickly, broke his own bow-string! No other Maharathi ever did such a mistake at the time of fighting with enemies. It proves that Arjuna didn't know about properly handling of celestial bows]
RESULT -
KARNA WAS ABLE TO WIELD AND STRING BOTH ORDINARY/CELESTIAL BOWS WITH EQUAL EFFICIENCY.
KARNA WAS CAPABLE TO HANDLE BOTH ORDINARY/CELESTIAL BOWS WITH EQUAL EFFICIENCY.
REGARDING ARJUNA, NEITHER ARJUNA WAS SKILLED ENOUGH TO WIELD OR STRING GANDIVA NOR HE KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT HANDLING HIS OWN CELESTIAL BOW.
--------------------­­-------------------­-­------------------­--­-----------------­---­----
● PART-3: FEATURES OF VIJAYA AND GANDIVA
Although it's clear like water that Gandiva was inferior to Vijaya just like the differences between their wielders, still some points should be considered here.
A) VIJAYA HAD ONLY ONE INDESTRUCTABLE STRING AND NO ONE SUCCEEDED TO BREAK IT
"BENDING then his own loud-sounding bow of IRREFRAGABLE STRING , Karna shot showers of shafts. The Suta's son destroyed that burning weapon of Arjuna"
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/­­m08/m08090.htm
[Vijaya bow had only one string which was indestructible]
B) GANDIVA HAD 100 USELESS STRINGS AS KARNA USED GANDIVA FOR HIS ARCHERY PRACTICE
"Then KARNA, with a number of whetted shafts endued with great energy, CUT OFF the STRING OF ARJUNA'S BOW. Similarly he cut off the SECOND string, and then the THIRD, and then the FOURTH, and then the FIFTH. The SIXTH also was cut off by Vrisha, and then the SEVENTH, then the EIGHTH, then the NINTH, then the TENTH, and then at last the ELEVENTH."
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/­­m08/m08090.htm
[Karna successively cut off 11 strings of Arjuna's celestial bow Gandiva. Arjuna never succeeded in cutting a single string of Karna's Vijaya bow, but Karna cut down 11 strings of Gandiva]
NOTE - It proves that Vijaya had BETTER features as compared to Gandiva. Just like SONY has better features than Samsung. Simply we can say thay "100 SONAR KI 1 LOHAR KI".
RESULT -
FEATURES OF THESE BOWS ALSO PROVES THAT VIJAYA BOW WAS MORE POWERFUL THAN GANDIVA JUST LIKE KARNA WAS MORE POWERFUL THAN ARJUNA.
--------------------­­-------------------­-­------------------­--­-----------------­---­----
● PART-4: PERFORMANCES OF KARNA AND ARJUNA WITH/WITHOUT CELESTIAL BOWS
A) ARJUN WITH ORDINARY BOW
- Defeated old Draupada with the help of his 3 brothers. Karna's young son Vrishasena alone defeated Draupada in Kurukshetra War sanctioning that Vrishasena was superior to Arjuna.
- Was defeated and spared by Karna in Draupadi swayamvar
B) ARJUNA WITH CELESTIAL BOW
- Was defeated by demon Kalakanjas.
- Was defeated by demon Nikumbha and started vomiting blood in the sky.
- Was defeated by Karna on 12th and 16th day at Kurukshetra and rescued by Satyaki. Was defeated and ran away from Karna on 17th day. Inspite of being protected by 3 gods, was almost defeated by Karna in final encounter.
- Was defeated by Drona on 14th day at Kurukshetra and fled twice.
- Failed to kill Jayadratha without help of Krishna.
- Was overpowered by ordinary warriors like Achyutayus, Susharma etc.
- Famous as crooked warrior responsible for unfair deaths of Bhishma, Karna, Bhurisrava and Duryodhana.
- Was defeated by ordinary Saindhava soldiers and was saved by Saptrishis.
- Failed to counter Vaishnavastra, Nagastra, Narayanastra, Bramhastra and was saved by Krishna.
- Was defeated by his own son infact kid Vabruvahana in a single shot of ordinary arrow.
- Was defeated by ordinary Dwarka robbers and misused by them for their bamboo practice. Later palayan from Dwarka with speed 200 KM/HR which later reduced upto 120 KM/HR due to continuous running.
C) KARNA WITH ORDINARY BOW
- Conquered ENTIRE EARTH in all four direction during digvijaya.
- Alone defeated Draupad unlike loser Arjuna who needed support of his brothers.
- Alone defeated Bhagadatta where loser Arjuna failed to defeat Bhagadatta.
- Alone conquered all kings in Bhanumati swayamvar including Shishupala, Rukmi, Jarasandha, Bhishmaka and many others.
- Alone beat Matsya army and Virata on 11th day at Kurukshetra as well as during digvijaya.
- Defeated and spared Bhima, Sahadeva and Nakula on 14th day, 14th night and 16th day respectively.
- On 14th night used Satyaki, Dhristadyumna and many others for his archery practice until they retreated.
- Again vanquished Bhima on 15th day and used Satyaki, Dhristdyumna and many other for archery practice on 16th day.
D) KARNA WITH CELESTIAL BOW
- Defeated Bhima 6 times, Satyaki 5 times, Dhrishtadyumna 8 times, Yudhistira thrice and Arjuna once.
- Slew 1.5 Akshauhini troops in Karna Parva using both ordinary and celestial bows.
- Inspite of Arjuna's being protected by 3 gods, overpowered Arjuna 27 times and almost vanquished him.
RESULT -
ARJUNA HAVE TRACK RECORD OF DEFEATS WITH/WITHOUT USING CELESTIAL BOW WHICH PROVES THAT HE WAS USELESS THOUGH HE HAD ADVANTAGE OF CELESTIAL BOW.
ON THE OTHER HAND, ALMOST 90% OF THE FEATS OF KARNA WERE ACHIEVED WITH ORDINARY BOWS. KARNA USED VIJAYA BECAUSE KARNA WAS THE ONLY MORTAL OF DWAPARA YUGA WAS SKILLED ENOUGH TO HANDLE THIS SUPREME ULTIMATE WEAPON.
______________________________________________________________________________________
■ CONCLUSION :
VIJAYA (KARNA) > GANDIVA (ARJUNA)
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: வஞ்சகன்--கண்ணனா, கர்ணனா?

விஜையன்
In reply to this post by தாமரை
KARNA - THE LEGENDARY ARCHER
Mahabharata describes Karna as the 'Greatest Archer' ever born on this earth. This thread is dedicated to the unique feats of legendary archer Suryaputra Karna.
________________________________________________________________________________­______
1) KARNA WAS THE 'ONLY ARCHER' WHO HAD OUT-PERFORMED THE FEATS OF ARJUNA, MORE ACCURATELY AND IN LESS TIME IN RANGBHOOMI
A) Performance of Karna
KMG Version -
Then with the permission of Drona, the mighty Karna, delighting in battle, there did all that Partha had done before.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/­­hin/m01/m01139.htm
William Buck's Version -
Karna turned gracefully to Arjuna and said, "I shall do all you have just done, so that you too may be amazed." Drona gave his permission, and Karna did it all, and easily did it BETTER; he was QUICKER, he was MORE gracious, and his skill was effortless.
SS - (http://goo.gl/EdhJT2)
B) Analysis of Yudhisthira
Yudhishthira was impressed with the belief that there was NO WARRIOR on earth like unto Karna.'"
http://www.sacred-texts.com/­­hin/m01/m01140.htm
--------------------­­-------------------­-­------------------­--­-----------------­---­----
2) IN DRAUPADI SWAYAMVARA, KARNA WAS THE "ONLY ARCHER" WHO HAD STRUNG THE BOW WITH SUCH TERRIFIC SPEED AND GREAT SKILL THAT ALL REGARDED THE TARGET TO BE HIT DOWN BEFORE RELEASING AN ARROW
And beholding the plight of those monarchs, Karna that foremost of all wielders of the bow went to where the bow was, and quickly raising it strung it and placed the arrows on the string.""And beholding the son of Surya--Karna of the Suta tribe-- like unto fire, or Soma, or Surya himself, resolved to shoot the mark, those foremost of bowmen--the sons of Pandu-- regarded the mark as already SHOT AND BROUGHT DOWN upon the ground."
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/­­m01/m01190.htm
--------------------­­-------------------­-­------------------­--­-----------------­---­----
3) KARNA WAS THE "ONLY ARCHER" WHO HAD COUNTERED HUNDREDS OF TERRIBLE ILLUSIONS OF GHATOTKACHA AT NIGHT AND THIS FEAT IS MARKED AS "UNIQUE FEAT" WHICH CAN NOT BE PERFORMED BY ANY OTHER ARCHER EXCEPT KARNA
Then, O monarch, the mighty son of Bhimasena excited with wrath, DIVIDED HIS OWN SELF into many parts, frightening all the mighty car-warriors (of the Kuru army). Then there came on the field of battle LIONS, and TIGERS, and HYENAS, and SNAKES with fiery tongues, and BIRDS with IRON beaks. As regards Ghatotkacha. himself, struck with the keen arrows that were sped from Karna's bow, that huge Rakshasa, looking like (Himavat) the prince of mountains, disappeared then and there. Then many RAKSHSAS and PISACHAS, and, YATUDHANAS, and large numbers of WOLVES and LEOPARDS, of frightful faces rushed towards Karna for devouring him. These approached the Suta's son, uttering fierce howls for frightening him. Karna pierced every one of those MONSTERS with many swift-winged and terrible shafts that drank their blood. At last, using a celestial weapon, he DESTROYED that illusion of the Rakshasa. He then, with some straight and fierce shafts, struck the steeds of Ghatotkacha. These, with BROKEN and maimed limbs, and their backs cut by those shafts, fell down on the earth, in the very SIGHT of Ghatotkacha.
Indeed, O giver of honours, there is NO ONE ELSE AMONGST ALL LIVING CREATURES who can accomplish what Karna accomplished in that frightful battle.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/­­hin/m07/m07172.htm
--------------------­­-------------------­-­------------------­--­-----------------­---­----
4) KARNA WAS THE 'ONLY ARCHER' WHO WAS COMPLETELY ACQUAINTED WITH THE SPECIFIC TECHNIQUES OF ARCHERY FOR COUNTERING 1000 KINDS OF ILLUSIONS
He who, with Shakra's dart, slew that prince of Rakshasas, Ghatotkacha­­, who from desire of victory, had invoked a 1,000 KINDS OF ILLUSIONS.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/­­hin/m08/m08009.htm
--------------------­­-------------------­-­------------------­--­-----------------­---­----
5) KARNA WAS THE 'ONLY ARCHER' WHO HAD CUT OFF KEEN-EDGED CELESTIAL WHEEL USING ORDINARY SHAFTS
Then Ghatotkacha, thus PIERCED by the Suta's son in his VITAL PARTS and FEELING GREAT PAIN, took up a CELESTIAL WHEEL having a THOUSANDS RADII. The edge of that wheel was SHARP as a razor. Possessed of the splendour of the morning sun, and decked with jewels and gems, Bhimasena's son hurled that wheel at the son of Adhiratha, desirous of making an END of the latter. That wheel, however, of great power and hurled also with great might, was CUT OFF INTO PIECES by Karna with his shafts, and fell down, baffled of its object, like the hopes and purposes of an unfortunate man.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/­­hin/m07/m07172.htm
--------------------­­-------------------­-­------------------­--­-----------------­---­----
6) KARNA WAS THE 'ONLY ARCHER' WHO WAS ABLE TO SHOOT ARROWS IN SUCH A WAY THAT EVERYONE FAILED TO MEASURE THE SPEED OF HIS SHOOTING ARROWS
1ST TIME -
While employed with his hands in taking up an arrow, fixing it on the bow-string, stretching the string and letting it off, none could notice any interval between those acts. And while Karna was thus engaged in shooting his arrows right and left, his bow incessantly drawn to a circle, like a terrible circle of fire.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/­­hin/m07/m07135.htm
2ND TIME -
[Terrific speed of Karna confessed by Lord Krishna]
These wails are being incessantly heard, O Partha, of thy helpless friends who are uttering them, mangled by the shafts of Karna. The manner in which Karna is aiming and letting off his shafts is such that NO INTERVAL can be noticed between the two acts. He will, O Partha, annihilate all our friends.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07170.htm
NOTE - Even supreme Lord Krishna failed to measure the speed of shooting of Karna, that's too at night.
3RD TIME -
Indeed, what we saw appeared to be highly wonderful. PEOPLE COULD NOT NOTICED when he took up his arrows, when he aimed them, and when he let them off. They only beheld his enemies dying fast in consequence of his wrath.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m08/m08048.htm
--------------------­­-------------------­-­------------------­--­-----------------­---­----
7) KARNA WAS THE 'ONLY ARCHER' WHO WAS CAPABLE OF HURLING THE MIGHTY BRAHMASTRA BY MIND ALONE
I shall, by MY MIND ALONE, hurl today at Partha, for my victory, that weapon of immeasurable energy, called the Brahmastra. Arjuna will never be able to escape that weapon, if only the wheels of my car do not sink into the Earth in battle today.
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/­­m08/m08042.htm
--------------------­­-------------------­-­------------------­--­-----------------­---­----
8) KARNA WAS THE 'ONLY ARCHER' WHO KNEW ALL 5 VIDHIS OF ARCHERY (IF IT EXISTS)
Archery is divided into five skills. In order to become a complete archer, one must have all the five skills. These skills are-
1) Prayaga Vidhi - Simply using/hurling a weapon
2) Upsanhara Vidhi- Recalling/­­withdrawing a weapon
3) Avarti Vidhi - Preventing disasters
4) Prayashchitya Vidhi - Killing only enemies in a large group, not innocents/friendly ones
5) Pratighat Vidhi- Rebounding a weapon
DETAILS - (https://goo.gl/8cf6bI)
--------------------­­-------------------­-­------------------­--­-----------------­---­----
9) KARNA WAS THE 'ONLY ARCHER' WHO HAD BAFFLED THE MIGHTY BRAHMASTRA USING ORDINARY ARROWS
Having said these words unto the holy Keshava, Savyasaci of immeasurable soul bowed unto Brahman and invoked into existence that excellent irresistible weapon called BRAHMASTRA which could be applied by the mind alone. BAFFLING hat weapon, however, Karna looked beautiful as he continued, like a cloud pouring torrents of rain, to SHOOT HIS SHAFTS. Beholding that weapon of the diadem-decked Arjuna baffled in the midst of battle by Karna, the wrathful and mighty Bhima, blazing up with rage,
http://www.sacred-texts.com/­­hin/m08/m08090.htm
--------------------­­-------------------­-­------------------­--­-----------------­---­----
10) KARNA WAS THE 'ONLY ARCHER' WHO HAD DESTROYED THE CELESTIAL CROWN OF ARJUNA WHICH WAS INDESTRUCTIBLE EVEN FOR LORD SHIVA, GODS AND RAKSHASAS
That diadem was INCAPABLE OF BEING CRUSHED BY RUDRA and the Lord of waters and Kuvera with Pinaka and noose and thunderbolt and the very foremost of shafts. It could not be endured by even the foremost ones among the gods. Vrisha, however, now broke it forcibly with his snake-inspired shaft.
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/­­m08/m08090.htm
--------------------­­-------------------­-­------------------­--­-----------------­---­----
11) KARNA WAS THE 'ONLY ARCHER' WHO CAUSED LORD KRISHNA (SUPREME LORD) TO BATH IN BLOOD AND FIRST TIME LORD KRISHNA WAS SEVERELY WOUNDED AFTER BECOMING CHARIOTEER OF THE UNSKILLED ARJUNA
Beholding KRISHNA'S LIMBS thus MANGLED with those snakes transformed into arrows sped from Karna's arms, Arjuna, decked with diadem and garlands, blazed up with wrath like a fire engaged in burning a heap of dry grass.
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/­­m08/m08089.htm
--------------------­­-------------------­-­------------------­--­-----------------­---­----
12) KARNA WAS THE 'ONLY ARCHER' WHO WAS ABLE TO SHOOT ARROWS JUST USING ONE ARM AND HOLDING BOW WITH FEET
Quoted from Prof. Tripathi's Version of Veda Vyasa Mahabharata -
SS - (http://goo.gl/r7DDIQ)
कर्ण समझ गये की प्रार्थना व्यर्थ है । वह रथ से कुद पडे और एक तीर ऐसा मारा की अर्जुन का वर्म भेद कर छाती मे घुस गया । अर्जुन कुछ देर के लिए संग्राहीन से हो गये । इसी अवसर पर कर्ण पहीया निकालने लगे । पहीया निकालते हुए वे पैर से धनुष पकडकर तीर चलाते जाते थे, और एक हाथ से पहीया निकाल रहे थे । पहीया इतना धॅस गया था की एक हाथ से निकल नही रहा था । अर्जुन को निष्क्रीय देखकर, समय समझकर, कर्ण दोनो हाथो से पहीया निकालने लगे
Translation -
Karna understood requesting was of no use.
He jumped from the chariot and shot an arrow in such a way that it entered Arjuna's chest by piercing his armour.
Arjuna lost his sense for some time and Karna taking advantage of this situation started taking out the wheel of his chariot.
While taking out the wheel he held bow with his legs and with one hand fired arrows while with other he was taking out his wheel.
Wheel sank so much that it was not coming out with the help of one hand Seeing Arjuna senseless Karna utilized that time to extract wheel with the help of both his hands.
--------------------­­-------------------­-­------------------­--­-----------------­---­----
13) KARNA WAS THE 'ONLY ARCHER' WHO WAS ABLE TO CUT OFF ARJUNA'S IMPENETRABLE AINDRA KAVACH
[Arjuna told the Pandavas]
And the lord Maghavan granted me this golden garland and this shell, Devadatta, of mighty roars, and also HIS CELESTICAL MAIL IMPENETRABLE and capable of PROTECTING the body.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/­­hin/m03/m03173.htm
1ST TIME -
Beholding that shaft aimed by the Suta's son, O sire, the Pandavas, with cheerless hearts, gave themselves up to great sorrow. That shaft of KEEN POINT and endued with the effulgence of sakra's thunder, sped from Karna's arms, fell upon Dhananjaya's CHEST and PENETRATED it like a mighty snake penetrating an ant-hill.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/­­hin/m08/m08091.htm
2ND TIME -
he caused five other blazing arrows resembling five snakes to penetrate the body of Krishna. Shot with great force, those arrows, decked with gold, PIERCED THROUGH THE ARMOUR OF THAT FOREMOST OF BEINGS and PASSING OUT of his body fell upon the earth. Endued with great energy, they entered the earth with great force and having bathed (in the waters of the Bhogavati in the nether region) coursed back towards Karna.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/­­hin/m08/m08089.htm
(NOTE) - Karna was the only archer who used simple ordinary armour in Kurushetra war and broke divine impenetrable Aindra armour of Arjuna. He also made Bhima and Abhimanyu bath in blood though they had divine impenetrable armours.
DETAIL- (https://goo.gl/N85vfs)
--------------------­­-------------------­-­------------------­--­-----------------­---­----
14) KARNA WAS THE 'ONLY ARCHER' WHO BROKE CELESTIAL BOW (RAUDRA) OF ABHIMANYU IN A SINGLE SHOT (EXCEPT KARNA NO WARRIOR SUCCEEDED IN BREAKING ANY CELESTIAL BOW)
Raudra bow of Abhimanyu-
That excellent and best of bows, called the Raudra, which Rohini's son (Valadeva) had obtained, the latter gave unto the high-souled son of Subhadra, having been gratified with him
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07023.htm
Karna broke 'Raudra bow' in a single shot-
who, having seen the warriors with Drona at their head afflicted with arrows and turn away from the field, had CUT OFF with his KEEN SHAFT the BOW of Subhadra's son.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/­­hin/m08/m08009.htm
--------------------­­-------------------­-­------------------­--­-----------------­---­----
15) KARNA WAS THE 'ONLY ARCHER' WHO SLEW 1.5 AKSHAUHINI TROOPS IN JUST ONE AND HALF DAYS, EVEN BHISHMA AND DRONA FAILED TO ACHIEVE SUCH FEATS
Indeed, neither Bhishma, nor Drona, nor any other warrior of thy army had ever achieved such feats as were then achieved by Karna in that battle. Amongst elephants, amongst steeds, amongst cars and amongst men, the Suta's son caused a very great carnage, O tiger among men.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/­­hin/m08/m08056.htm
DETAIL- (https://goo.gl/3SxEr8)
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: வஞ்சகன்--கண்ணனா, கர்ணனா?

விஜையன்
In reply to this post by விஜையன்
இவை அனைத்தும் karna vs arjun என்ற பக்கத்திலிருந்து எடுக்கப்பட்டது. எதார்த்த நிலையில் யோசித்தால் இவையனைத்தும் உண்மை என்றே தோன்றுகிறது.

karna vs arjun பக்கத்திற்கும் க்கும் மற்றும் இப்பக்கத்திற்க்கும் நன்றி.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: வஞ்சகன்--கண்ணனா, கர்ணனா?

Arul Selva Perarasan
Administrator
மொழிபெயர்த்துக் கொண்டிருக்கும்போதே, இப்போது கூட அர்ஜுனன் எவ்வளவு மேன்மையானவன் என்பதற்கு ஒரு வரி எனக்குக் கிடைக்கிறது.

பீஷ்ம பர்வம் பகுதி 108-ஐ மொழிபெயர்த்துக் கொண்டிருக்கிறேன். பீஷ்மர் என்ன சொல்கிறார் கவனியுங்கள்...

Except the highly blessed Krishna, and Dhananjaya the son of Pandu, I do not behold the person in the three worlds who is able to slay me while exerting myself in battle.

உயர்ந்த அருளைக் கொண்ட கிருஷ்ணன் மற்றும் பாண்டுவின் மகனான தனஞ்சயன் ஆகியோரைத் தவிர, போரில் முயலும் என்னைக் கொல்ல இயன்ற ஒருவனை மூவுலகிலும் நான் காணவில்லை.

இப்படி அர்ஜுனனின் மேன்மையை விளக்க பாரதத்தில் ஏகப்பட்ட தகவல்கள் விரவிக் கிடக்கின்றன. அவை அனைத்தையும் இடைசெருகல் என்று கொண்டால் மொத்த பாரதமும் இடைசெருகல் என்றாகிவிடும்.

கர்ணன் மேம்பட்டவன் என்பதற்கு ஆதரவாக பெரும் பதிவுகளை இட்டிருக்கிறீர்கள். இதற்கெல்லாம் உடனடியாக பதிலளிக்க என்னால் இயலாது. எனக்கு நேரமும் போதவில்லை..  நேரம் கிட்டும் போது பதிலளிக்க முயல்கிறேன். நண்பர் தாமரைச் செல்வன் அவர்களும் பதிலளிப்பார் என நினைக்கிறேன். பார்ப்போம்.


2016-02-25 20:58 GMT+05:30 விஜையன் [via முழு மஹாபாரதம் விவாதம்] <[hidden email]>:
இவை அனைத்தும் karna vs arjun என்ற பக்கத்திலிருந்து எடுக்கப்பட்டது. எதார்த்த நிலையில் யோசித்தால் இவையனைத்தும் உண்மை என்றே தோன்றுகிறது.

karna vs arjun பக்கத்திற்கும் க்கும் மற்றும் இப்பக்கத்திற்க்கும் நன்றி.


If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
http://x.2334454.n4.nabble.com/-tp256p686.html
To start a new topic under முழு மஹாபாரதம் விவாதம், email [hidden email]
To unsubscribe from முழு மஹாபாரதம் விவாதம், click here.
NAML

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: வஞ்சகன்--கண்ணனா, கர்ணனா?

Ramesh
தங்களின் பதிவுக்கு நன்றி திரு விஜயன் அவர்களே,

                     தங்களின் நீண்ட பதிவிற்கு உடனடியாக என்னால் முழுதும் படித்து பதில் அளிக்க முடியவில்லை. இருப்பினும் திரு.அருட்செல்வன் பேரரசன் அவர்கள் கூறியது போல் நேரம் கிடைக்கும் பொது ஆராய்ந்து என் கருத்தை தெரிவிக்கலாம் என்று நினைக்கிறேன்.
                     
                      முதற்கட்டமாக பீஷ்மபர்வம் பகுதி 91இல் வரும் வரிகளை உங்களுக்கு தெரிவிக்கிறேன். துரியோதனன் கர்ணனை போரிட அனுமதிக்குமாறு கேட்கும்போது பீஷ்மர் அவனிடம் கர்ணன் அர்ஜுனனிடம் தோற்ற சம்பவத்தை எடுத்து சொல்லி பாண்டவர்கள் வெல்லமுடியாதவர்கள் என்று கூறுகிறார்.

//ஓ வலிய கரங்களைக் கொண்டவனே {துரியோதனா}, பாண்டுவின் அதே மகன் {அர்ஜுனன்}, கந்தர்வர்களால் சிறைபிடிக்கப்பட்டுத் தூக்கிச் செல்லப்பட்ட உன்னை மீட்டானே, அதுவே போதுமான அறிகுறியாகும். - See more at: http://mahabharatham.arasan.info/2016/02/Mahabharatha-Bhishma-Parva-Section-099

அந்தச் சந்தர்ப்பத்தில், ஓ தலைவா {துரியோதனா}, துணிச்சல்மிக்க உன் உடன் பிறந்த தம்பிகள் அனைவரும், சூத சாதியைச் சேர்ந்த அந்த ராதையின் மகனும் {கர்ணனும்} தப்பி ஓடினார்கள். (அர்ஜுனனால் நீ மீட்கப்பட்ட) அதுவும் {அந்த நிகழ்வும்} போதுமான அறிகுறியே. - See more at: http://mahabharatham.arasan.info/2016/02/Mahabharatha-Bhishma-Parva-Section-099

அவன் {அர்ஜுனன்}, விராடனின் நகரத்தில் ஒன்றுகூடியிருந்த நம் அனைவரின் மீதும் தனியாளாகவே பாய்ந்தான். அது போதுமான அறிகுறியே. - See more at: http://mahabharatham.arasan.info/2016/02/Mahabharatha-Bhishma-Parva-Section-099

அவன் {அர்ஜுனன்}, சினத்தால் தூண்டப்பட்டிருந்த துரோணரையும், என்னையும் போரில் வென்று, எங்கள் ஆடைகளை எடுத்துச் சென்றான். அது போதுமான அறிகுறியே. - See more at: http://mahabharatham.arasan.info/2016/02/Mahabharatha-Bhishma-Parva-Section-099

தன் ஆண்மையைக் குறித்துப் பெரிதாகத் தற்பெருமை பேசும் கர்ணனையும் தோல்வியடைச் செய்த அவன் {அர்ஜுனன்}, பின்னவனின் {கர்ணனின்} ஆடைகளை உத்தரனுக்குக் கொடுத்தான். அது போதுமான அறிகுறியே. - See more at: http://mahabharatham.arasan.info/2016/02/Mahabharatha-Bhishma-Parva-Section-099//

 மேற்கண்ட வரிகளில் பீஷ்மர் கர்ணன் புறமிதுகிட்டு ஓடியதையும், விராட போரில் கர்ணன் அர்ஜுனனிடம் தோற்றதையும் எடுத்துக்கூறுகிறார். பீஷ்மர் எந்த காலத்திலும் பொய் பேசாதவர் என்பதால் மேற்கண்ட வரிகளை பொய்யாக நினைக்க முடியாது.

 அதே போல கர்னபர்வத்திலும் சல்லியன் கர்ணனை இகலும் போது விராட போரில் அவன் தோற்றத்தை எடுத்து சொல்லும் வரிகள் உள்ளன. கர்ணனும் அவற்றை மறுக்கவில்லை.

 மேலும் ஆதி பர்வத்தில் திர்திராஷ்டிரன் சஞ்சயனிடம் எப்பொழுது அர்ஜுனன் தனி ஒருவனாக விராட போரில் வென்றானோ அப்பொழுது எனக்கு வெற்றியில் நம்பிக்கை இல்லை என்று கூறினான்.
//எப்பொழுது, எனது மூத்த வீரர்கைளயும் அர்ஜுனன் தன்னந்தனியாக
விராடத்தில்வென்றான், என்று அறிந்தேனா அப்பொழுேத எனக்கு
வெற்றியில் நம்பிக்கையில்லை.// ஆதி பர்வம் பகுதி ஒன்று ஆ.

இப்படி நீங்கள் நன்கு ஆராய்ந்து பார்த்தல் பல இடங்களில் விராட போர் குறித்த தகவல் உங்களுக்கு கிடைக்கும்.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: வஞ்சகன்--கண்ணனா, கர்ணனா?

தாமரை
Administrator
In reply to this post by Arul Selva Perarasan
அரசியல்வாதிகள் மட்டுமே ஒரு உரையில் வரும் ஓரிரு வாக்கியங்களையும் வார்த்தைகளையும் எடுத்துக் கொண்டு பிரச்சனைகளை ஏற்படுத்திக் கொண்டிருப்பார்கள். உதாரணமாக ஒரு அமைச்சர் இந்த கொலைப் பிரச்சனை மாநில அரசு கையாள வேண்டிய பிரச்சனை. நாட்டில் ஒரு நாயின் மீது யாராவது கல்லெறிந்தால் கூட மத்திய அரசுதான் காரணம் என்று கூற, எதிர்கட்சிகள் அந்த நாயை மட்டுமே பிடித்துக் கொண்டு போராட்டம் நடத்தின. அது போல் துண்டு துண்டாக எடுத்து கர்ணன் மாவீரன் என்று காட்டுவதால் கர்ணன் அர்ச்சுனனை விட மாவீரன் என நிரூபித்து விட இயலாது.

1. அர்ச்சுனனைக் கொல்ல வாசவ அஸ்திரத்தை அதாவது சக்தி அஸ்திரத்தைக் கர்ணன் இந்திரனிடமிருந்து பெறுகிறான். ஆனால் கர்ணனைக் கொல்ல அர்ச்சுனன் எந்த தேவனையும் வேண்டி எந்த அஸ்திரமும் பெறவில்லை. அப்படியானால் மாவீரன் யார்? கர்ணனா? அர்ச்சுனனா?

2. விராடப் போரில் அர்ச்சுனன் பீஷ்மர், துரோணர், அஸ்வத்தாமன், கர்ணன் ஏனோயோரைத் தவிர்த்து நேரடியாக துரியோதனனைத் தாக்க விரைந்தது ஆரம்பம் மட்டுமே. அனைவரும் அவனுக்குக் குறுக்கே வந்து தடுத்த போது அவன் என்ன காலிலா விழுந்தான்? இல்லை அவனைக் காக்க அங்கே கண்ணன் தான் இருந்தானா? தடைகளை உடைத்து அவன் முன்னேறிக் கொண்டுதானே இருந்தான்?

இப்படி விவரிக்க, முழுமையாய் பார்க்க பார்க்கத்தான் உங்களுக்கு கர்ணனா அர்ச்சுனனா என விளங்கும். ஒவ்வொரு துண்டாய் இருக்கும் அனைத்து தகவல்களுக்கும் அடுத்த வாரம் முழுமையாய் பதில் தருகிறேன். அதுவரை பொறுத்துக் கொள்ளுங்கள்.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: வஞ்சகன்--கண்ணனா, கர்ணனா?

Arul Selva Perarasan
Administrator
நண்பர்களே உங்கள் விளக்கங்கள் அருமை. @தாமரை முழுமையாகப் பதில் தர முன்வந்தமைக்கு நன்றி... நான் அவலுடன் எதிர்பார்க்கிறேன்.


2016-02-27 10:59 GMT+05:30 தாமரை [via முழு மஹாபாரதம் விவாதம்] <[hidden email]>:
அரசியல்வாதிகள் மட்டுமே ஒரு உரையில் வரும் ஓரிரு வாக்கியங்களையும் வார்த்தைகளையும் எடுத்துக் கொண்டு பிரச்சனைகளை ஏற்படுத்திக் கொண்டிருப்பார்கள். உதாரணமாக ஒரு அமைச்சர் இந்த கொலைப் பிரச்சனை மாநில அரசு கையாள வேண்டிய பிரச்சனை. நாட்டில் ஒரு நாயின் மீது யாராவது கல்லெறிந்தால் கூட மத்திய அரசுதான் காரணம் என்று கூற, எதிர்கட்சிகள் அந்த நாயை மட்டுமே பிடித்துக் கொண்டு போராட்டம் நடத்தின. அது போல் துண்டு துண்டாக எடுத்து கர்ணன் மாவீரன் என்று காட்டுவதால் கர்ணன் அர்ச்சுனனை விட மாவீரன் என நிரூபித்து விட இயலாது.

1. அர்ச்சுனனைக் கொல்ல வாசவ அஸ்திரத்தை அதாவது சக்தி அஸ்திரத்தைக் கர்ணன் இந்திரனிடமிருந்து பெறுகிறான். ஆனால் கர்ணனைக் கொல்ல அர்ச்சுனன் எந்த தேவனையும் வேண்டி எந்த அஸ்திரமும் பெறவில்லை. அப்படியானால் மாவீரன் யார்? கர்ணனா? அர்ச்சுனனா?

2. விராடப் போரில் அர்ச்சுனன் பீஷ்மர், துரோணர், அஸ்வத்தாமன், கர்ணன் ஏனோயோரைத் தவிர்த்து நேரடியாக துரியோதனனைத் தாக்க விரைந்தது ஆரம்பம் மட்டுமே. அனைவரும் அவனுக்குக் குறுக்கே வந்து தடுத்த போது அவன் என்ன காலிலா விழுந்தான்? இல்லை அவனைக் காக்க அங்கே கண்ணன் தான் இருந்தானா? தடைகளை உடைத்து அவன் முன்னேறிக் கொண்டுதானே இருந்தான்?

இப்படி விவரிக்க, முழுமையாய் பார்க்க பார்க்கத்தான் உங்களுக்கு கர்ணனா அர்ச்சுனனா என விளங்கும். ஒவ்வொரு துண்டாய் இருக்கும் அனைத்து தகவல்களுக்கும் அடுத்த வாரம் முழுமையாய் பதில் தருகிறேன். அதுவரை பொறுத்துக் கொள்ளுங்கள்.


If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
http://x.2334454.n4.nabble.com/-tp256p690.html
To start a new topic under முழு மஹாபாரதம் விவாதம், email [hidden email]
To unsubscribe from முழு மஹாபாரதம் விவாதம், click here.
NAML

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: வஞ்சகன்--கண்ணனா, கர்ணனா?

தாமரை
Administrator
In reply to this post by விஜையன்


● PART-1 : PROOF FROM DIFFERENT VERSIONS

Kumarvyass MB which was recited in 13th century by Lord Vishnu himself doesn't mentioned Virat war. Devdutt version doesn't mentioned virat war. Shanta rao version not mentioned virat war. jaimini bharat doesn't mentioned virat war. Ramesh C Dutt version only described defeat of Duryodhana in virat not others


ஆறாம் நூற்றாண்டில் எழுதப்பட்ட வில்லி பாரதத்தில் விராடப் போரில் கர்ணன் ஒரு முறை அல்ல மூன்று முறை அர்ஜுனனுடன் தோற்று ஓடுவதாக எழுதப்பட்டுள்ளது.

http://www.tamilvu.org/library/l3800/html/l3800ind.htm

 இது கங்கூலியின் மஹாபாரதத்திலும் இருக்கிறது, நீங்கள் ஆரம்பத்தை மட்டுமே படித்திருக்கிறீர்கள்.


6 ஆம் நூற்றாண்டில் இருந்த கதை 13 ஆம் நூற்றாண்டில் இல்லை என்றால் அது இடைச் செருகல் அல்ல, இடை நீக்கல். கர்ணனை உயர்பித்துக் காட்டவென்று அது நீக்கப்பட்டிருக்கலாம்.

கங்கூலியியின் மொழிபெயர்ப்பில் உள்ளதை  நீங்களும் படிக்கலாம்.

புறமுதுகிட்ட கர்ணன் - விராடப் போர்
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m04/m04054.htm
http://mahabharatham.arasan.info/2014/12/Mahabharatha-Virataparva-Section54.html

வடதிசை நோக்கி ஓடிய கர்ணன்! - விராட பர்வம் பகுதி 60
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m04/m04060.htm
http://mahabharatham.arasan.info/2014/12/Mahabharatha-Virataparva-Section60.html

எனவே ஆர்வக் கோளாறு காரணமாக ஒரு சில வரிகளை மற்றும் பிடித்துக் கொள்ள வேண்டாம். விராடப் போரின் அன்றைய தேவை பசுக்களை மீட்டல். ஒரு அக்குரோணி சேனை மற்றும் கௌரவர்கள், கர்ணன், பீஷ்மர், துரோணர் கிருபர், அஸ்வத்தாமன்  உள்ளிட்டோரைக் கொல்வதல்ல. இதில் அர்ச்சுனன் மோகனாஸ்திரம் பிரயோகிக்க அனைவரும் மயங்க்கி விடுகிறார்கள். அவர்களின் ஆடைகளை உத்தரன் கவர்ந்து வருகிறான். இதே மோகனாஸ்திரத்தை ஜெயத்திரதனைத் தேட மஹாபாரத யுத்ததில் 14 ஆம் நாள் ஏன் அர்ச்சுனன் பயன்படுத்தவில்லை என்பதை யோசித்துப் பாருங்கள்.

Arjun twanged his mighty weapon, blew his far-resounding shell,
Strangely spake his monkey-standard, Kuru warriors knew it well,

Sankha's voice, Gandiva's accents, and the chariot's booming sound,
Filled the air like distant thunder, shook the firm and solid ground.

Kuru soldiers fled in terror or they slumbered with the dead,
And the rescued lowing cattle with their tails uplifted fled!

ரொமேஷ் தத் மிகச் சுருக்கமாக எழுதி இருப்பதால் இதை எடுத்துக் கொள்வது தவறு.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: வஞ்சகன்--கண்ணனா, கர்ணனா?

தாமரை
Administrator
 PART-2 : PROOF FROM KMG VERSION

1ST PROOF -

ACCORDING TO SAGE VED VYASSA, THERE WAS NO FIGHT BETWEEN KARN AND ARJUN IN VIRAT WAR

Passage-1 : (Drona Parv)

Indeed, Karna had kept his dart, desirous of slaying Savyasachin, O bull of Bharata's race, by good luck JISHNU DID NOT ENGAGE IN SINGLE COMBAT with Karna."

http://sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07180.htm


இது தவறாகப் புரிந்து கொள்ளப்பட்டிருக்கிறது. இது இந்திரன் கொடுத்த சக்தி அஸ்திரத்தைப் பற்றிய உரையாடல் ஆகும். அதே பத்தியில் மேலும் வசனங்கள் இருக்கின்றன. இது 10 ஆம் நாள் முதல் 14 ஆம் நாள் இரவு வரை கர்ணன் அர்ச்சுனனுடனான தீவிரமானப் போர் நடக்கவில்லை என்று குறிக்கிறதே தவிர அர்ச்சுனன் கர்ணன் போர் எப்பொழுதுமே நடைபெறவில்லை என்பதைக் குறிக்கவில்லை. கர்ணன் அர்ச்சுனனைக் கொல்ல சக்தி அஸ்திரத்தையும் நாகாஸ்திரத்திரத்தையும் நம்பி இருந்தான் என்பது கண்கூடு, இதில் நாகாஸ்திரம் வெறும் கொடும் விஷம் கொண்ட அம்பு மட்டுமா என்ற கேள்வியும் உண்டு. காரணம் திரும்பி வரும் சக்தி கொண்ட அஸ்திரங்கள் டார்க்கெட் லாக் எனப்படும் இலக்கை தேடி அளிக்கும் புத்திசாலித்தனம் கொண்டவை.  அவற்றைக் குனிந்தெல்லாம் தப்பிக்க முடியாது. அர்ச்சுனனே குனிந்து தப்பித்திருக்கலாம் கண்ணன் மீது பழி போடுகிறீர்களே ஞாயமா?

The weapons of the Suta's son would have been destroyed by Arjuna. The former then afflicted by the latter, would certainly have hurled Indra's dart in that battle. O Yudhishthira! O foremost one of Bharata's race, (if this had come to pass), then great would have been thy grief. O giver of honours, by good luck the Rakshasa hath been slain in battle by the Suta's son. Indeed, Ghatotkacha hath been slain by death himself making the dart of Vasava an instrument only.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: வஞ்சகன்--கண்ணனா, கர்ணனா?

தாமரை
Administrator
2ND PROOF -

THERE WAS NO FIGHT BETWEEN KARN AND ARJUNA IN VIRAT WAR CONFESSED BY DHRITRASHTRA

Tell me, O Sanjaya, why DID NOT Vrisha then ENAGAGING Phalguna in single combat, slay the latter with that dart given him by Sakra?

www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07179.htm

3RD PROOF -

THERE WAS NO FIGHT BETWEEN KARN & ARJUNA CONFESSED BY SANJAYA

At the time of battle, however, we forget our resolution. Kesava always protected Arjuna, the son of Kunti. He NEVER PLACED Arjuna before the Suta's son in battle.

www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07179.htm

Ghajni BORI -

अर्जुनं चापि कौन्तेयं सदा रक्षति केशवः
न ह्येनमैच्छत्प्रमुखे सौतेः स्थापयितुं रणे

http://sanskritdocuments.org/mirrors/mahabharata/unic/mbh07_sa.html

(CONCLUSION) - AS PER VED VYASSA, SANJAYA AND DHRITRASHTRA THERE WAS NO FIGHT BETWEEN KARN & ARJUNA IN VIRATA WAR

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

இவையும் தவறாகப் பொருள் கொள்ளப்பட்டுள்ளன. சஞ்சயனும் த்ருதராஷ்டிரனும் உரையாடுவது மஹாபாரதப் போரைப் பற்றி மட்டுமே. எல்லோரும் வசதியாக பாசுபதஸ்திரத்தை மறந்து விட்டீர்கள். கர்ணனிடம் இந்திரனின் சக்தி அஸ்திரம் இருந்தது போலவே அர்ச்சுனனிடம் பாசுபதாஸ்திரம் இருந்ததே. பாசுபதாஸ்திரத்தை இன்னும் ஏன் பயன்படுத்தவில்லை என தர்மன் கவலையே கொள்ளவில்லை. தன் மகன் அர்ச்சுனன் கொல்லப்பட்ட போதும் சரி ஜெயத்ரதனை தேடிக் களைத்த போதும் சரி அர்ச்சுனன் அதைப் பயன்படுத்தவே இல்லையே.  தன் உயிரே போகும் நிலை அர்ச்சுனனுக்கு நான்கு முறையாவது வந்தது. சாவின் விளிம்பில் இருந்த பொழுதும் அர்ச்சுனன் அதை பயன்படுத்தவே இல்லை. அப்படியானால் மஹாபாரதப் போர் நடக்கவே இல்லை. எல்லாம் பொய் என்று எடுத்துக் கொள்ளலாம் அல்லவா?

விராடப் போரில் தேரோட்டியது உத்திரன். அப்படி இருக்க esava always protected Arjuna, the son of Kunti. He NEVER PLACED Arjuna before the Suta's son in battle. என்ற வரி பொருந்தாது.

why DID NOT Vrisha then ENAGAGING Phalguna in single combat, slay the latter with that dart given him by Sakra? என்பதும் பதினோராம் நாள் முதற்கொண்டு நடந்த போரையே குறிக்கிறது. விராடப் போரில் கர்ணனின் சகோதரன் கொல்லப்படுகிறான். ஆகவே போரே நடக்கவில்லை என்பது தவறாகும்.

கர்ண-அர்ச்சுனப் போர் அர்ச்சுனனாலும் ஆரம்பிக்கப் படவில்லை. கர்ணனாலும் ஆரம்பிக்கப்படவில்லை. அப்படியென்றால் அதன் பொருள் கர்ணனின் தேரோட்டியின் இயலாமையும், கர்ணனின் இயலாமையும்தான் காரணம். துரோணர் கூட 11, 12,13 ஆம்  நாட்களில் அர்ச்சுனனை எதிர்க்க பகதத்தன், சம்சப்தர்கள் போன்றோரையே பணித்தார். ஏன் ஒரு சம்சப்தனாக கர்ணன் சென்று அர்ச்சுனனுடன் போரிட்டு இருக்கக் கூடாது? அப்படி சவால் விடுத்திருந்தால் பதிமூன்றாம் நாளே அவனுக்கும் அர்ச்சுனனுக்கும் போர் மூண்டிருக்குமே. சக்தி அஸ்திரம் பயன்படுத்தி இருக்கலாமே? ஏன் ஒரு சம்சப்தனாக கர்ணன் போரில் இறங்கவில்லை?

அர்த்தம் காணுதல் என்பது வேறு அர்த்தப்படுத்தல் என்பது வேறு. ஒரு பாடலில் பொதிந்து உள்ள அர்த்தம் காணுவது வேறு. வலிய நமக்குத் தேவையான அர்த்தம் எடுத்தல் என்பது வேறு.

இதிலிருந்து இதில் இருக்கும் வாதங்கள் 5 நாள் போரை ஆயுள் முழுதுமான போராக அர்த்தப்படுத்திக் கொள்வதால் விளைந்த தவறு
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: வஞ்சகன்--கண்ணனா, கர்ணனா?

Arul Selva Perarasan
Administrator
//இதிலிருந்து இதில் இருக்கும் வாதங்கள் 5 நாள் போரை ஆயுள் முழுதுமான போராக அர்த்தப்படுத்திக் கொள்வதால் விளைந்த தவறு// அப்படித்தான் தெரிகிறது.


2016-02-29 12:59 GMT+05:30 தாமரை [via முழு மஹாபாரதம் விவாதம்] <[hidden email]>:
2ND PROOF -

THERE WAS NO FIGHT BETWEEN KARN AND ARJUNA IN VIRAT WAR CONFESSED BY DHRITRASHTRA

Tell me, O Sanjaya, why DID NOT Vrisha then ENAGAGING Phalguna in single combat, slay the latter with that dart given him by Sakra?

www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07179.htm

3RD PROOF -

THERE WAS NO FIGHT BETWEEN KARN & ARJUNA CONFESSED BY SANJAYA

At the time of battle, however, we forget our resolution. Kesava always protected Arjuna, the son of Kunti. He NEVER PLACED Arjuna before the Suta's son in battle.

www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07179.htm

Ghajni BORI -

अर्जुनं चापि कौन्तेयं सदा रक्षति केशवः
न ह्येनमैच्छत्प्रमुखे सौतेः स्थापयितुं रणे

http://sanskritdocuments.org/mirrors/mahabharata/unic/mbh07_sa.html

(CONCLUSION) - AS PER VED VYASSA, SANJAYA AND DHRITRASHTRA THERE WAS NO FIGHT BETWEEN KARN & ARJUNA IN VIRATA WAR

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

இவையும் தவறாகப் பொருள் கொள்ளப்பட்டுள்ளன. சஞ்சயனும் த்ருதராஷ்டிரனும் உரையாடுவது மஹாபாரதப் போரைப் பற்றி மட்டுமே. எல்லோரும் வசதியாக பாசுபதஸ்திரத்தை மறந்து விட்டீர்கள். கர்ணனிடம் இந்திரனின் சக்தி அஸ்திரம் இருந்தது போலவே அர்ச்சுனனிடம் பாசுபதாஸ்திரம் இருந்ததே. பாசுபதாஸ்திரத்தை இன்னும் ஏன் பயன்படுத்தவில்லை என தர்மன் கவலையே கொள்ளவில்லை. தன் மகன் அர்ச்சுனன் கொல்லப்பட்ட போதும் சரி ஜெயத்ரதனை தேடிக் களைத்த போதும் சரி அர்ச்சுனன் அதைப் பயன்படுத்தவே இல்லையே.  தன் உயிரே போகும் நிலை அர்ச்சுனனுக்கு நான்கு முறையாவது வந்தது. சாவின் விளிம்பில் இருந்த பொழுதும் அர்ச்சுனன் அதை பயன்படுத்தவே இல்லை. அப்படியானால் மஹாபாரதப் போர் நடக்கவே இல்லை. எல்லாம் பொய் என்று எடுத்துக் கொள்ளலாம் அல்லவா?

விராடப் போரில் தேரோட்டியது உத்திரன். அப்படி இருக்க esava always protected Arjuna, the son of Kunti. He NEVER PLACED Arjuna before the Suta's son in battle. என்ற வரி பொருந்தாது.

why DID NOT Vrisha then ENAGAGING Phalguna in single combat, slay the latter with that dart given him by Sakra? என்பதும் பதினோராம் நாள் முதற்கொண்டு நடந்த போரையே குறிக்கிறது. விராடப் போரில் கர்ணனின் சகோதரன் கொல்லப்படுகிறான். ஆகவே போரே நடக்கவில்லை என்பது தவறாகும்.

கர்ண-அர்ச்சுனப் போர் அர்ச்சுனனாலும் ஆரம்பிக்கப் படவில்லை. கர்ணனாலும் ஆரம்பிக்கப்படவில்லை. அப்படியென்றால் அதன் பொருள் கர்ணனின் தேரோட்டியின் இயலாமையும், கர்ணனின் இயலாமையும்தான் காரணம். துரோணர் கூட 11, 12,13 ஆம்  நாட்களில் அர்ச்சுனனை எதிர்க்க பகதத்தன், சம்சப்தர்கள் போன்றோரையே பணித்தார். ஏன் ஒரு சம்சப்தனாக கர்ணன் சென்று அர்ச்சுனனுடன் போரிட்டு இருக்கக் கூடாது? அப்படி சவால் விடுத்திருந்தால் பதிமூன்றாம் நாளே அவனுக்கும் அர்ச்சுனனுக்கும் போர் மூண்டிருக்குமே. சக்தி அஸ்திரம் பயன்படுத்தி இருக்கலாமே? ஏன் ஒரு சம்சப்தனாக கர்ணன் போரில் இறங்கவில்லை?

அர்த்தம் காணுதல் என்பது வேறு அர்த்தப்படுத்தல் என்பது வேறு. ஒரு பாடலில் பொதிந்து உள்ள அர்த்தம் காணுவது வேறு. வலிய நமக்குத் தேவையான அர்த்தம் எடுத்தல் என்பது வேறு.

இதிலிருந்து இதில் இருக்கும் வாதங்கள் 5 நாள் போரை ஆயுள் முழுதுமான போராக அர்த்தப்படுத்திக் கொள்வதால் விளைந்த தவறு


If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
http://x.2334454.n4.nabble.com/-tp256p695.html
To start a new topic under முழு மஹாபாரதம் விவாதம், email [hidden email]
To unsubscribe from முழு மஹாபாரதம் விவாதம், click here.
NAML

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: வஞ்சகன்--கண்ணனா, கர்ணனா?

தாமரை
Administrator
In reply to this post by தாமரை
● PART-3 : EXPOSING ERRORS OF INTERPOLATED VIRAT WAR

ARJUNA TOLD UTTAR THAT HE HAD HELD GANDIVA BOW FOR 65 YRS

And after that Varunaheld it for a hundred years. And finally Partha,
surnamed Swetavahana, 1hath held it for FIVE AND SIXTY years.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m04/m04043.htm

[ Arjun did obtain Gandiva bow in khandav-dahan Parv. Abhimanyu was born in parv which comes before Khandava-dahan. Abhimanyu was either 33 yrs old or 16 yrs old its contradictory. Even if we assume he was 16 yr old still how can Arjun held gandiva for 65 yrs. Because he obtained gandiva after birth of Abhimanyu and if abhimanyu himself was 16 yrs old then how can Arjun held gandiva for 65 yrs. LOL]

Exposing funny logic of Arjun fans-

Arjun fan admin is trying to justify this by altering sloka. As per this funny admin, Arjuna was trying to say that he held gandiva for 32 years and he will use hold gandiva for 33 years in the future. Thats why 32 (past) + 33 (future) = 65 years. LOL

சமஸ்கிருதம் என்பது ஒரு கிரிப்டட் லேங்குவேஜ் அதாவது மறைகுறியாக்க மொழி. அதனாலேயே அதன் பொருள் காண்பதற்கு குருவின் உதவி தேவைப்படுகிறது.

சிவன், இதை {காண்டீவத்தை} ஆயிரம் {1000) வருடங்கள் வைத்திருந்தான். அதன்பிறகு பிரஜாபதி, இதை ஐநூற்றுமூன்று வருடங்கள் {503} வைத்திருந்தான். அதன் பிறகு, சக்ரன் {இந்திரன்}, இதை எண்பத்தைந்து {85} வருடங்கள் வைத்திருந்தான். அதன் பிறகு சோமன் {சந்திரன்}, இதை ஐநூறு {500} வருடங்கள் வைத்திருந்தான். அதன் பிறகு வருணன், இதை, நூறு {100} வருடங்கள் வைத்திருந்தான். கடைசியாக ஸ்வேதவாஹனன் [1] என்ற பட்டப் பெயர் கொண்ட பார்த்தன் {அர்ஜுனன்} இதை அறுபத்தைந்து {65} வருடங்கள் [2] வைத்திருந்தான். பெரும் சக்தியும், உயர்ந்த தெய்வீகப் பிறப்பும் கொண்ட இது {காண்டீவம்}, விற்கள் அனைத்திலும் சிறந்ததாகும். தேவர்களாலும் மனிதர்களாலும் கொண்டாடப்படும் இது {காண்டீவம்} அழகிய வடிவம் கொண்டதாகும். பார்த்தன் {அர்ஜுனன்}, இந்த அழகிய வில்லை வருணனிடம் இருந்து பெற்றான்.

இதில் வைத்திருந்தான் என்ற இறந்த காலத்தைச் சொல்லும் வார்த்தையில் தொங்க்கிக் கொண்டிருக்கிறீர்கள்.  ஆனால் ஸ்லோகத்தில் இந்தக் காலம் இறந்த காலமாகக் காட்டப்படுகிறதா அல்லது முழு அளவு காலமாக காட்டப்படுகிறதா என புரிந்து கொள்ளுதல் முக்கியம்.

நன்கு கூர்ந்து அலசினால் உண்மை புரியும்

http://mahabharatham.arasan.info/2013/10/Mahabharata-Chronology2.html

பிங்கள வருடம் ஐப்பசி மாதம் வளர்பிறை 10ம் நாளில் யுதிஷ்டிரன் பட்டம்சூட்டப்பட்டான். அப்போது அவனுக்கு {யுதிஷ்டிரனுக்கு} வயது சரியாக 46 வருடம்.
{பீமனுக்கு வயது 45, அர்ஜுனனுக்கு வயது 44, நகுல சகாதேவர்களுக்கு வயது 43}


28.   அர்ஜுனன் 12 வருடம் தீர்த்த யாத்திரை சென்றான். அவன் {அர்ஜுனன்} காளயுக்தி (Kalayukthi) வருடத்தில் சென்று பிரமோதூத (Pramodhoota) வருடத்தில் திரும்பினான். பிரமோதூத வருடம் வைகாசி மாத வளர்பிறை 10ம் நாளில் அர்ஜுனன் சுபத்திரையைத் திருமணம் செய்தான். அபிமன்யு பிரமோதூத வருடத்தில்தான் பிறந்தான்.
{அர்ஜுனனுக்கும் சுபத்திரைக்கும் திருமணம் நடைபெறும் போது அர்ஜுனனுக்கு சுமார் வயது 57. அபிமன்யு பிறக்கும் போது அர்ஜுனனுக்கு சுமார் வயது 57}
மேலும் விவரங்களுக்கு கீழே உள்ள இணைப்பைச் சொடுக்கவும்:
"சுபத்திரையைக் கடத்து!" என்றான் கிருஷ்ணன் - ஆதிபர்வம் பகுதி 221
சுபத்திரையைக் கடத்தினான் அர்ஜுனன் - ஆதிபர்வம் பகுதி 222

 பிரமோதூது வருடம்  ஆவணி மாத வளர்பிறை 2ம் நாளில் காண்டவ வனம் எரிக்கப்பட்டது. யுதிஷ்டிரனுக்கு அப்போது வயது 58 வருடங்கள் 10 மாதங்கள் 15 நாட்கள். மயன் கட்டிய சபாமண்டபத்தைக் கட்டி முடிக்க 1 வருடம் 2 மாதம் ஆகியது.

31.   பாண்டவர்கள் மயசபைக்குள் பிரசோத்பத்தி (Prajopatthi) வருடம் ஐப்பசி மாத வளர்பிறை 10ம் நாளில் நுழைந்தனர். யுதிஷ்டிரனுக்கு அப்போது வயது 60 வருடம் 5 நாள் ஆகும்.

32.   பாண்டவர்கள் இந்திரப் பிரஸ்தத்தை 16 வருடங்கள் ஆண்டு வந்தனர். அதாவது சர்வஜித்த (Sarvajit) வருடம் ஐப்பசி மாதம் வளர்பிறை 10ம் நாள் வரை ஆண்டனர். யுதிஷ்டிரனுக்கு அப்போது வயது 76 வருடம் 5 நாட்கள் ஆகும்.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

மேற்கண்ட காலக்கணக்குபடி காண்டவ வனம் எரிக்கப்பட்ட போது தர்மனின் வயது 58 + 10 மாதங்கள்.

குருஷேத்திர யுத்தத்தின் போது

13 வருட வனவாசத்திற்குப் பிறகு குருஷேத்திரப் போர் நடைபெற்றபோது
யுதிஷ்டிரனுக்கு வயது   :89
பீமனுக்கு வயது         :88
அர்ஜுனனுக்கு வயது    :87
நகுல சகாதேவர்களுகு   :86
துரியோதனனுக்கு வயது :88
கர்ணனுக்கு வயது       :105
கிருஷ்ணனுக்கு வயது   :87

ஆக காண்டீபம் பெற்று 30 ஆம் வருடம் அந்த உரையாடல் நடைபெற்றது. மஹாபாரதப் போருக்கு பின் 34 ஆண்டுகள் தர்மன் ஆண்டான். காண்டீபம் அர்ச்சுனன் கையில் இருந்தது. அதன் பின் அர்ச்சுனன் காண்டீபத்தை தியாகித்தான். காரணம் கிருஷ்ணன் இருந்தபின் காண்டீபத்தின் சக்தி நீங்கியது.

அதாவது இப்பொழுது அதே செய்யுளைக் கவனியுங்கள்.

கடைசியாக ஸ்வேதவாஹனன் [1] என்ற பட்டப் பெயர் கொண்ட பார்த்தன் {அர்ஜுனன்} இதை அறுபத்தைந்து {65} வருடங்கள் [2] வைத்திருந்தான்.

இதில் வைத்திருந்தான் என்பது தவறான மொழிபெயர்ப்பு.

இந்தக் காண்டீபம் சிவன் கையில் ஆயிரம் {1000) வருடங்கள் இருந்தது. அதன்பிறகு பிரஜாபதி கையில் இதை ஐநூற்றுமூன்று வருடங்கள் {503} இருந்தது. அதன் பிறகு, சக்ரன் {இந்திரன்} கையில் எண்பத்தைந்து {85} வருடங்கள் இருந்தது. அதன் பிறகு சோமன் {சந்திரன்}, கையில் ஐநூறு {500} வருடங்கள் இருந்தது. அதன் பிறகு வருணன் கையில் நூறு {100} வருடங்கள் இருந்தது. கடைசியாக ஸ்வேதவாஹனன் [1] என்ற பட்டப் பெயர் கொண்ட பார்த்தன் {அர்ஜுனன்} கையில் அறுபத்தைந்து {65} வருடங்கள் [2] இருக்கும். பெரும் சக்தியும், உயர்ந்த தெய்வீகப் பிறப்பும் கொண்ட இது {காண்டீவம்}, விற்கள் அனைத்திலும் சிறந்ததாகும். தேவர்களாலும் மனிதர்களாலும் கொண்டாடப்படும் இது {காண்டீவம்} அழகிய வடிவம் கொண்டதாகும். பார்த்தன் {அர்ஜுனன்}, இந்த அழகிய வில்லை வருணனிடம் இருந்து பெற்றான்.

இப்படி வில்லின் கதையை சொல்லியதை, தன்மை - முன்னிலை - படர்க்கை கோணத்தில் மாற்றி எழுதியதால் உண்டாகிய குழப்பம் அது.

அர்ச்சுனன் கையில் அறுபத்தைந்து ஆண்டு காலம் காண்டீபம் இருக்கும் என்பது விதி. அதையே அர்ச்சுனன் குறிப்பிடுகிறான்.

காண்டீபத்தின் கதையை அர்ச்சுனனுக்கு யார் சொன்னார்கள்? அது இல்லவே இல்லையே.. அர்ச்சுனனுக்கு எப்படி தெரிந்தது என புதிதாக ஒரு கேள்வி வேண்டுமானல் எழுப்பிக் கொள்ளுங்கள். காண்டீபத்தின் உதவியால் முன்னோர்கள் யாரும் ஒரு சாதனையும் செய்யாத போது அர்ச்சுனன் மட்டும் எப்படி சாதித்தான்? அப்படியானால் சக்தி காண்டீபமா? இல்லை அர்ச்சுனனா?????




1234